The Arm/Cartridge Matching Myth

Despite the lack of scientific evidence available for those making the same claims as Mijostyn.....it rarely prevents them continuing with exactly the same claims.
Their usual segue is to  postulate that many things in audio cannot be proven by science.......cable differences, similar amplifier specifications sounding differently, speakers with similar test results sounding differently etc.
Don't be fooled by this disingenuous argument because it is they...the ones making this claim, who are introducing 'science' (Arm/Cartridge Resonance Frequency) to arrive at a conclusion unsupported by that 'science'.

It provoked a 'thought exercise' which leads me to a 'theory' as yet unsupported by scientific evidence.
I predict that any cartridge will have the same Frequency Response Plot Graph regardless of the Arm/Cartridge Resonance it 'sees'.....

This is really sticking my neck out because any electronics technician or even audiophiles with an oscilloscope can very easily prove me wrong here 🤣
A kewpie doll to the first one who does.....👼

Imd distortion measurments would be good to add to such an experiment...

Dear @halcro : I know that if you are or can’t be aware/detect something then and no matter what your belive is that that " thing " tha’s happening just does not exist for you.

For several years now and in different threads I already told you that no matters what your room/system impedes ( I don’t want to repeat my in the past wide explanations/facts about. ) that you can be aware not only of this critical " myth " ( as you name it. ) but many other important audio subjects.

Please do it a favor ( for the very first time in your life. ) and read very carefully all the different evidences/facts that several gentlemans ( some of them with better knowledge levels that you or me. ) posted in this thread and in others about the issue:


https://www.ortofon.com/support/support-hifi/resonance-frequency/


""

compliance is a measure of how springy the suspension is...
so a high compliance cartridge has a fairly soft suspension...ie the suspension is easily compressed, it is highly complaint
... if you stick a high compliance cartridge on to a high mass arm..it will generally work...but tracking anything other than a perfectly flat record will cause undamped vibrations in the arm because the suspension is too soft to recover after a warp...or while tracking heavily modulated grooves of high amplitude waves
those vibrations wil affect the stylus’ ability to trace the record groove properly..and unwanted resonances may intrude upon the audible frequencies caused by this mis match...
think of a heavy car on soft suspension springs...when it goes over a bump..it wobbles for a long period of time before it comes to rest...

the opposite applies for a low complaince cartridge and a low mass arm... the low compliance of the cantilver’s suspension (e.g. fairly rigid, does not deflect much under a light mass) added to a low mass arm.(eg less inertia..so requires less force to move it) will lead to mistracking and in some cases an inability to correctly follow a record that is anything other than perfectly flat... also the stylus will struggle to follow the groove without moving the whole arm as well on large modulations in the record...ie bass notes..
same car analogy... light car on stiff springs...meets bump... the car will spend most of its time off the ground when it hits a bump at speed...and the tyres will have trouble following the up and downs of the roads surface because there is not enough mass acting on the stiff suspension ..

its basically a juggling act and you can get away with fairly extreme combinations but ideally you want to settle for a decent mechanical match between the mass of your arm..and how soft or stiff the suspension in your cartridge is...

the effective mass is the mass that the cartridge ’see’s at the end of the tonearm... some arms are heavier in ’mass’ but concentrate that mass near the pivot so the end of the tonearm may have a lower effective mass acting upon the stylus.... think of tapered tonearms...where the mass increases towards the pivot...or arms with heavy bearing assemblies that use a thin tonearm tube...

the balance you aim for basically..is to keep the stylus moving as independently from the arm as possible..without causing any vibration that will feed into the arm and back into the cartridge...ie wobbling... on the other side...you want the stylus to follow the groove as closely as possible without being disturbed (vibrated unecessarily)by warps in the record or losing contact with the groove walls.. ""





""" The thing that can take care of rather large mismatches is tonearm damping. Damping the tonearm´s movements is a key in getting better low frequency stability. ""




dlaloum:


"" any sprung system will have a resonance point at which it moves most easily - energy will tend to get channeled into that frequency resulting in a peak in amplitude.

The mass/springing system of the tonearm, where the only spring is the suspension of the cartridge works in the same way.

Even when the resonant frequency is at the "ideal" frequency of 10Hz, what happens is anything near that frequency will tend to excite the sprung system, and magnify those frequencies.

Test records have tracks of low frequency sweeps - basically a tone at a set level with gradually dropping or increasing frequency usually starting at 3 or 5 Hz and rising to 20Hz or 25Hz.

If you record this track and plot the amplitude to frequency, you will note that it does not reflect a line (as it theoretically should) but shows a marked peak at the resonant frequency. Depending on the arm/cartridge this peak can be anywhere from 2-3db (ok) up to 8db+ (bad).

The peak is not a narrow one, and usually influences frequencies on either side of the maximum point to a lesser extent.

As the RF (resonant frequency) rises it can start to impact on the audible low frequency response of the system - a substantial boost in amplitude at 15Hz as an example can cause huge subwoofer/woofer pumping, sucking up amplifier current, causing intermodulation of the bass frequencies, and generally affecting the sound as a result. (amps being under pressure using up all its grunt moving the woofers ends up losing its sweetness in the high end...) This is one of the reasons golden age phono centric amps often have a subsonic filter!

As the RF drops it starts to approach the frequencies generated by things like footfalls, and other vibrations external to the TT.

If you watch an arm/cartridge at its resonant frequency it clearly starts to "wobble" - there is substantial physical movement.. as it rises the needle will get pulled slightly back, as it drops it will get pushed slightly forward, a form of wow that is seldom considered, but does affect all frequencies reproduced.

Additionally the movement generates vibrations in the entire system which in turn intermodulate with the signal, generating other spurious "noise" (Intermodulation Distortion.).

Also when the RF is triggered, the cartridge movement can cause mistracking - with all of its associated problems, including increased wear and tear on record and stylus!

A well tuned arm/cartridge have the RF positioned where it does the least harm - by keeping it away from footfall/external vibration frequencies, and the resonant frequencies of the TT suspension (usually around 5Hz), keeping it away from the audio range (15Hz+) and if possible keeping its amplitude as small as possible.

Regardless of the final RF, the resonance remains an undesirable aspect of TT technology.

There is a way to control it, it is called damping. Damping can 1) reduce the amplitude of the RF, and 2) slightly shift the peak frequency.
The most common damping is fluid damping using a paddle system in an oil bath attached to the arm - it provides a slight resistance in a frequency sensitive way - the end result can be very effective. (the damping can be internal within the tonearm pivot column, external, it can be done with fluid or electro magnetic servo means...)

As an example, my JVC turntable has a damped arm - running a TK9e cartridge, I measured the resonant frequency at 5.9Hz - this being with the damping disabled.
Enabling the damping "widened" the peak somewhat - going from 5.8Hz to 6.5Hz, but dropped its peak from +4db down to +1db.
The stylus compliance is 31cu, the arm mass calculated out to 23.8g (including cartridge and fixings) - so high mass tonearm with high compliance cartridge - resulting in low RF (much too low).

With damping disabled - the mistracking was relatively obvious - and the system was very very sensitive to anyone walking around the house.
With damping enabled - the mistracking disappeared, and footfall sensitivity although still there, became much much reduced.

This is clearly NOT an ideal setup - I can make it useable with damping - but it will be better if I can lighten the mass by 4g or 5g with a lighter headshell.
And then I can still damp the resulting higher RF....

Some test records have an interesting track that can be used to identify the RF they run the low frequency sweep tone, at the same time as a steady audible tone...

When the arm hits the resonant frequency you clearly hear the tone "warble" - a result of the arm/cartridge movement.

A lesser and more subtle version of this happens when you play a record, and the arm is excited at its RF.

I strongly recommend damped tonearms regardless of the RF... ""





tonywin:


""" Tracking force does not affect the natural frequency of the cartridge/tonearm system- unless you have so much tracking force that the cartridge suspension is bottomed out. You’ll know that is the case if you see a thin ribbon of vinyl curling up behind the needle while playing a record.
Effective Mass is a shortcut for calculating the tonearm/cartridge system natural frequency. Effective mass is really the inertia of the tonearm expressed in grams. That’s because the tonearm is resting on a fulcrum (pivot). The tonearm and counterweight weigh much more than just a few grams. Additionally, the effective mass can vary depending on the position of the counterweight. So a lower mass cartridge will lower the effective mass of the tonearm since the counter weight will be closer to the pivot. I guess the tonearm manufactures provide us with a nominal value. Don’t forget to add the mass of the cartridge, not just the spring rate to the natural frequency calculation.
The only magic about 10Hz +/-2 Hz is that this is the "quiet" area. Below 8 Hz is the range of record warps and footfalls. Above 16 Hz is getting into the range of the music. The tonearm/cartridge system is still responding at 10Hz. Any energy input will make it respond at that frequency. The key is not to have input at 10Hz. This is so the inherent damping of the stylus suspension and any tonearm pivot bearing friction can be effective at keeping the tonearm/cartridge calm. That small amount of damping keeps things under control. If the tonearm system has a response at say 3-5Hz then the resonance- infinite energy out will overwhelm the damping properties and the tonearm will be greatly excited when rising over a record warp. You could certainly not have a problem with a tonearm system response of 5Hz as long as the records are perfectly flat, hole dead center and the turntable well isolated from footfalls.
I had a cartridge/tonearm system at 16 Hz once. It sounded ok but when I looked closely, the stylus was constanltly moving up and down. I rectified the problem by adding a 4 gram mass to the headshell. That dropped the natural frequency to about 10Hz. Everything was steady then.
The danger is that being outside the quiet zone (10Hz +/-) can result in excessive wear or even damage to your cartridge and records- even if it sounds fine. """




fleib:

"" Even though there’s normally no musical content below 20Hz, there is a variety of noise caused by friction, and the mechanical reality of tracking.
What’s the amplitude peak of undamped low frequency resonance? What exactly is it that’s resonating, your cantilever perhaps? Ever hear of intermodulation distortion?

This is all well documented for decades now. Imperfect equipment and set-up can allow acoustic and mechanical feedback to wreck havoc that is absent with digital.

If low frequency resonance is near the audio band, say 18Hz, then 2nd harmonic intermodulation is 36Hz.
This is from The Audio Dictionary:
http://books.google.com/books?id=L38MrvScG3gC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=low+frequency+resonant... """



timeltel:

""" From 35/40 years back, lots of informative data:
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-03-04-7501b.pdf

If you’re interested in credentials, Google Lee Phoenix.

Starting on pg. 9, the practical Peter Prichard; "We really don’t know quite what we’re doing in this industry":
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-04-08-7605b.pdf

Sources of resonance excitation: "The vibration input to the pickup (both signal and warp) is represented by the constant current generator exciting the circuit. The motion of the stylus assembly is modeled by the current in the CR branch, which shows that the circuit is a high-pass filter, with a resonant peak at the corner frequency."
http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4072#PhonoArmDamping ""




atmasphere:


""" Henry, Its more than being about warped records, if you read inbetween the lines of Kirkus’s post above- if the effective mass is incorrect, you can actually have the stylus jump out of the groove of a perfectly flat, concentric LP.

An excellent example is a Grado on a Graham 2.2- does the well-known ’Grado dance’ shortly before exiting stage left (IOW, jumps out of the groove).

The other issue is you won’t be able to get the cartridge to track complex material correctly. So its a big deal and not just about warp. ""




kirkus:


""

This Resonant Frequency has ZERO affect on the sound quality of a particular tonearm/cartridge combination and I have proved it hundreds of times with a dozen different arms and over 40 cartridges.

Hi Halcro . . . I think the main conceptual problem here is that the resonant frequency is only one parameter that’s descriptive of the tonearm/cartridge resonance envelope. Keep in mind that the tonearm/cartridge combination is a mechanical high-pass filter, and if there is a resonant peak . . . mathematically it must be a multi-pole system. This means that affecting any element changes not only the resonant frequency, but the width and height of the peak (Q), the transition-band slope, and the amount and periodicity of any pass-band ripple.

The difference between 8 and 12 Hz really is very little in the frequency domain - at 1/3-octave it’s the same as two adjacent bands on a 31-band EQ. And while the tonearm/cartridge system is indeed multi-order, its filter slope isn’t anywhere near steep enough to make much difference in LF response or warp-immunity simply with a change of frequency. Rather, the effect of raising the tonearm mass for a given cartridge usually increases the Q of the filter in addition to lowering the resonant frequency; that is, the resonant peak becomes higher and narrower.

The trade-offs of raising the system Q are the same as for any electrical filter: the "benefits" are that the transition-band (immediately below the resonant frequency) becomes sharper and more selective, and the pass-band (area above the resonant frequency) becomes overall "flatter". The "drawbacks" are that the system becomes dramatically more sensitive to energy imparted at the resonant frequency, the pass-band ripple increases, and increased ringing in the time-domain (impulse) response.

Pragmatically, the main issue will be the extent to which your turntable and environment conduct energy into the tonearm/cartridge system, and at what frequencies. If you’re using non-suspended turntables, on sturdy furniture, in a concrete building, then you’re probably going to have fewer issues with subsonic resonances, but your system will be more prone to acoustic energy conducted back into the tonearm . . . and a heavier, more rigid tonearm definitely helps to control and dampen this.

But for suspended turntables, springy wooden building structures, heavy support furniture sitting on carpet etc. etc. . . . indeterminately increasing the Q of the tonearm/cartridge system is playing with fire. Each of these additional spring/mass systems can potentially combine to create a condition where the system is extremely sensitive to subsonic and low-bass energy. Many view this as a reason to universally condemn suspended turntables . . . but it’s simply a different type of energy to which the system is susceptible, and the trade-off for better immunity to conducted energy within the audio range.

But regardless of the type of turntable design, domicile construction, or support furniture . . . I seem to see fairly regular inquiries on these fora for help to solve the issue of woofer-pumping while playing records. Much of the time the owner has already followed this sort of advice . . .

The best match for ANY cartridge ever made….is simply the very best tonearm you can afford…whatever its Effective Mass

Given that the prime mechanism determining susceptibility to this phenomenon is the tonearm/cartridge resonance envelope . . . the notion that this issue could be avoided simply by spending more money on a "better" tonearm seems a bit unreasonable to me. It’s simply far more effective to change to a lower-compliance cartridge, thereby creating a system with a lower-Q resonance envelope at a slightly higher frequency. """


If after you read it all those excellent information you still think that because yo just can’t be aware of that issue does not exist and is only a " myth " then you have a big big personal problem.

Btw, @mijostyn is rigth.

Think for a moment how could be that several knowledge gentlemans/audiophiles are wrong and only you are rigth? ? ! ! How????? What did you learn all those years from the day started this thread? ? What? ? 


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I always hesitate in responding to any Post by Raul as it invariably encourages him to continue what he imagines, is an actual dialogue.
This almost always results in bitter and defamatory statements until he has the last word.
So I will not respond to any further attempts on his part to interject himself.
However...I'm actually grateful for his 'reminders' of what others have contributed to this discussion as it confirms what I have postulated from the start:-

• The Tonearm/Cartridge Resonant Frequency has zero affect on the SOUND of a cartridge

Read very carefully the first quote from Ortofon where there is not a single mention of the affect on the SOUND from the cartridge.
It is all about trackability of WARPED records.

if you stick a high compliance cartridge on to a high mass arm..it will generally work...but tracking anything other than a perfectly flat record will cause undamped vibrations in the arm because the suspension is too soft to recover after a warp

This is not in dispute.....
My opening statement to this Thread states exactly that 🤗

Other quotes by respected individuals like Kirkus and Tonywin also confirm that the issue is purely TRACKABILITY.......no claims regarding the affects on SOUND.
But even Kirkus is sometimes prone to include 'opinion' rather than 'fact'.
Dlaloum and Fleib appear to me to be autodidacts with vast experience but insufficient scientific qualifications.....
However even they make no valid claims about the SOUND of the cartridge......

The consensus is heavily in favour of:-

• TRACKABILITY
• SUSCEPTABILITY TO FOOTFALLS
• SUSCEPTABILITY TO FEEDBACK 

Again, no arguments from me 👍

If anyone does have an issue with 'footfalls', 'trackability', 'woofer-pumping' or 'feedback' it would be worth trying to damp the tonearm and/or lower/increase the Arm/Cartridge Resonant Frequency to see if it helps.

My only caveat here is that this is a 'band-aid' solution to a far greater inherent problem.
If your turntable is not perfectly isolated from Structure-Bourne Feedback between 2Hz-10Hz.....you are likely to experience many other audible problems than 'trackability' 🥴

So now we have most scientists/physicists and importantly.....Ortofon agreeing with my fundamental opening statement

This Resonant Frequency has ZERO affect on the sound quality of a particular tonearm/cartridge combination

So what exactly is the punishment for those audiophiles who ignore the recommended Resonant Frequency Guidelines as I do....?
IF you sometimes play a warped record and IF that record contains subsonic bass information and IF your turntable is mounted on a springy wooden floor and IF you happen to walk on this springy wooden floor when this warped record containing subsonic frequency information is playing.......the cartridge MAY mistrack!!!! 😱
It MAY mistrack.....it's a POSSIBILITY......it's not guaranteed to occur and no-one can tell you the 'likelihood' or 'percentages' because that science has never been studied.
I can tell you it's happened to me ONCE in 40 years with a badly warped record (I only have three out of a thousand).
And guess what......an OUTER PLATTER RING solved the warped record problem 😃
So if that's the 'worst' thing that can happen to me......is it really worth ignoring HALF the cartridges out there because I might have a high-mass tonearm? 
Especially when ALL my high-compliance MM cartridges sound their best in my EXTREMELY high-mass FR-66S tonearm?

I can understand scientists getting excited about the Arm/Cartridge Resonant Frequency.....
It is one of the only true scientific equations which can be tested and proven in the turntable/arm/cartridge assemblage and I think....because of that, they have over-estimated its importance.
But here's the real trick.......
The 8Hz-12Hz part of the story is NOT science.....
Like a magician practicing legerdemain (don't look at my hands)......they slip in the 8Hz-12Hz bit as if it WERE part of the 'Resonant Frequency' science....✋🤚
The 8Hz-12Hz is merely an educated 'Rule-of-Thumb' (that's why Ortofon don't mention it).
There is little SCIENCE behind it.....
It hasn't been tested, studied, verified, quantified nor analysed.

To emphasise the lack of 'real' science behind this subject, it is accepted that science and formulae work in two directions.
If x=2y.....then 2y=x
One must be able to 'reverse-engineer' REAL science.
If an Arm/Cartridge Resonant Frequency of 6Hz or 16Hz is truly a disaster to be avoided.....then science dictates that one must 'recognise' when one HEARS either of these combinations playing.

HERE is my Thread 'Hear My Cartridges 🎶'.....
There are nearly 150 YouTube recordings of dozens of cartridges with 6 different tonearms on two different turntables.
I would estimate there are perhaps 20%-30% recordings with the Arm/Cartridge Resonant Frequency outside the recommended range.
If anyone can accurately pick the recordings and define how far 'above' or 'below' the recommended 8-12Hz Resonant Frequency they are.....I may revise my recommendation to completely ignore this malicious MYTH....🤔