The revolution has begun!

Digital Amp in the speaker:

Buchardt Anniversary 10.

Please read above.....Minidsp Flex

@ricevs - That VTV GaNFET looks like a winner, hope it sounds like one.  You mentioned bi-amping.  How would you get a coax input signal into both amps?  Do you have to use a splitter?

What was this thread about again? 🤦‍♂️

the big problem with quoting the idea of objective vs subjective is that subjective existence, which is all we have.. has allowed for a thing called 'objectivity' to exist.

Objectivity is a mental mind method/way/filter of thinking and exists solely at the discretion of an entirety subjective existence.

that's how we end up, after a cascade of logic, to having science tell you quite clearly, that facts don't exist, never have and never will (high probability) and that we theory only, in all things, and..try as we might...that it is still turtles all the way down.

Understand that this is the PEAK of all renaissance thinking and origins of all science and physics, and there is no denying that - across the board in all forms of physics, in all ways and areas.

Go ahead, ask an expert, university department head in the sciences, if what I saw is true. If you go to them asking for facts and to have them deny what I've said here, they'll look at you like you've got three heads.

So I don't know where this crud about objectivity vs subjectivity comes from.

Probably from the non-scientific branch of the academic endeavor. Commonly known as the lower tier of science, called engineering. where people are taught that facts exist, and that science is full of 'laws'.

both of which are part of a rote learning package created for those who can't navigate the complexities of no facts existing in the real world of actual science..

What speakers are you guys using with the GaN1?

This all looks very good on paper if you are an audiophile looking for the best sound from a digital source - all things being equal this concept should be better - surely? You are eliminating so many unneeded parts in the audio chain - it has to sound better - logic dictates this as a fact (Mr. Spock)!

But, and one but bothers me - all the digital "processing" that goes on inside a powerdac (or whatever you call them) can create a lot of RFI self-noise which can pollute the sound despite how pure this all seems to be.

You could say that purer is using a TDA1543 DAC (which does not do any computational processing of the signal at all due to its 80s simplicity - and why many hi-end audio designers use these simple DAC chips now). And then use a simple Tube amplification stage which again tends to be the simplest form of amplification without the need for many transistors in the path - also the amplification via a Tube goes through a vacuum and not silicon.

So maybe you could argue that a simple setup like the above could also be an excellent solution for different reasons.

Good for you, glad you are happy. Recall this type of excitement that faded fast with the LSA Voyger. 

I got the Gan 1 a couple days ago. Can only compare it to my Classe Sigma integrated. The difference is night and day. I like it. So simple yet so good. Using the Node with it. 2.1 setup for TV and streaming.

I like the objective versus subjective chart. It gets complicated though since almost everything is biased, colored by personal feelings, equivalent to opinions, and non-factual & non-verifiable. I prefer to use the terms objective and subjective to define types of statements. "The cat is on the mat" is an objective statement whether it is true or not. Ultimately it can never be truly verified so at some point a subjective opinion about the evidence available has come to play. It’s considered proven when the vast consensus of stakeholders agree with the evidence available. "The cat should be on the mat" is a subjective statement by its very nature, no matter the consensus. This whole audio debate is not really about subjectivity and objectivity. It’s about objective explanations that are given for why we have a particular subjective feeling about the way something sounds. It’s really an entirely objective argument. You really can’t argue in any logical sense about subjective issues. So if someone says they love such and such audio component - that can’t be argued with. If they say they love it purely because of the way it produces sound waves and not because of any visual aesthetics, back story, lore of the guru who made it, etc. influencing their sonic perception - they could be wrong! They’re making an objective statement that can be tested when they say things like that. They usually won’t be tested so I consider their explanations as unverified and just accept the fact that they are enjoying their gear for whatever reasons.

Post like this are what fuel the Tweak Atheists as your subjective bias is already pronounced before even applying the device.

I truly hope that is the case, but objective people will never see past your bias. 

Im getting 2 Purons which could take the fantastic sound stage, which is very deep and very clear, to an even cleaner level.  Curiosity killed the cat

 

@yyzsantabarbara 

Im getting 2 Purons which could take the fantastic sound stage, which is very deep and very clear, to an even cleaner level.  Curiosity killed the cat

VTV just released a digital amp that uses a more powerful version of the EAS board.........The VTV D300 is now being sold:

The reason it says Purifi on the faceplate is that he does not have any faceplates with D300 on them....He will allow you to change the faceplate for free when he gets the right ones in. I don’t think it even needs to say anything on the front except VTV.

The reason he rates the amp at 300 watts into 8 ohms when the module is rated at 400 watts is that the power supply dips in voltage when doing full power tests with both channels at the same time. If you did peaks on one channel at a time you would indeed get 400 watts of unclipped power. Most music has peaks that require the higher power.....hardly any music requires 400 watts continuous on both channels......and if you played it that loud....you are not smart......hearing loss, indeed.

The WBT-0703Cu jack option is a nice upgrade. Of course, I will offer mods on it. The digital amp game keeps getting more interesting. I cannot wait to bi-amp my speakers with these things.

@tweak1 Sorry to hear about that mishap. That was a very good amp. I have mishaps like this with my audio cables because I am always tinkering with placement and other gear combos.

I also keep my audio stand as far away from the speakers as possible. 

I believe I get delivery of the GAN1 on Tuesday or Wednesday. Along with a WyWire SPDIF cable with BNC to RCA termination. I already received the streaming addition I needed, the Sonore UltraDigital to connect to the GAN1. However, the mystery is if it will actually work via my ROON READY Sonore OpticalRendu. I have feedback from the guys at Sonore and 2 of them said it will work and 1 person said no. I need to make a ROON READY Endpoint change from FIXED to the other option (I forgot what that is). This is where the mystery lies of whether my setup will work with the GAN1. 

@yyzsantabarbara 

Needing more umph over the PS Audio M700s is why I bought Rics EVS 1200. Unfortunately, both my cables (Series 8 Wire World and Boutique PCs that didn't plumb the depths compared to what Im using now), and a Solid State vertical rack got in the way of my hearing what it is capable of. This was remedied when I came across a solid maple table (5 X 2 x 2") locally for $270!, and in the process of moving the kit out of the vertical I rested my V on a floating platform from which it slipped off. That would have been ok, but I had the top off and resting sideways on top, so when the amp slipped off the top nose diving into one of the modules. It looked ok until I turned the system on I had major fireworks, and so installed the EVS 1200. As much as I raved about it in a long thread when I first got it, which Ric asked me to take down for health reasons he wasn't going to make any more of them, the Voyager bettered it then. And so, it sat on the sidelines. Glad I still have it

@tweak1 Yes, I did get it modded by Ric. It was an improvement over stock, especially on the top end. I had another amp that had more low-end power but not as good on top, I sold the Voyager because I wanted more power for the bass with my old Thiel CS3.7. Everything I just mentioned was sold.

A "transport" is just the spinner in a CD player.  Almost every CD player has a coax digital out so can be used as just a "Transport".  Your Audiolab has no DAC in it so you call it a transport rather than a CD player.  Any player including universal players like an Oppo can be used via its coax out to the flex and into a digital amp.  However, you cannot play an SACD into the flex.....nor is SACD info allowed out of a normal coax out.  The amp and the Flex are PCM only devices.  You could make an integrated amp with digital amp modules where you change DSD info to PCM before it goes into the main pcm to pwm conversion.....Technics does this.  You can burn your SACDs to a computer and use software in a computer to change it to high speed PCM and then output that to a streamer like the IFI Zenstream to play through digital amps.

You get a Flex and a single stereo digital amp and you have a blast....you add a second amp and get rid of the crossover in your speaker and you are in heaven.  No more bass nodes.....full equalization......no more binding posts....no more passive xovers.....just pure sound.....dynamic as hell.  Fun times await folks......the future is now!

@yyzsantabarbara Did Ric tweak your Voyager?

@ricevs I have not gotten into streaming/ripping and at 74+ it’s not a priority. In your last post you first mentioned the GaN 1 can be used with a CD PLAYER + Flex, then a few sentences later- a TRANSPORT. So, either? I am admittedly confused when it comes to digital tech. 

I am using a Audiolab 6000 CDT transport into a Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 dac pre + LPS. My speakers are Emerald Physics 3.4s; Open Baffle, concentric 12" woofers with 1" polyester tweeters AND outboard XOs!, oh and your EVS 1200. I managed to blow one of the modules in my Voyager, but damn, the EVS 1200 is fantastic too. Even though I had expensive Wire World XLRs and speaker cables, apparently they did not bring out the best in our EVS 1200, whereas the Ali-Express Odin 2 knockoffs do. Who knew back then?

@jerryg123 I, too have owned many class D amps, but not until I bought Ric’s EVS1200 (based on the ICEPower AS 1200 modules) + Rics Pixie Dust, was I happy, even moreso with the LSA Voyager GaN 350, I would agree with you

Revolution...  Lots of discussion around this topic of digital amplification.  I have not tried any amplifiers that are not class A or A/B in my system.  I'm sure there may be some in the other realms that are great sounding, however I've heard improvements made in my analog preamp and amp system just through my source component digital domain by improving jitter and noise.  I personally moved away from the analog source media when I felt the digital domain progress I made a couple of years ago was just as good, and in a few cases slightly better than my analog source.  My speakers are easy to drive and very efficient and with my 4 different flea-watt amplifiers of both solid-state and tube all class A topology, the most realistic sound I've heard has come from those flea-watt class A amplifiers.  Each one is slightly different than the other, but all are satisfying to me.  If you get that level of satisfaction from any of your component's be they analog, digital or combination, good for you.  I haven't heard any of the digital-domain type of amplifiers on my system, however in other systems, I've heard a slight "hardness" that I hadn't detected with analog preamp/amplification systems.  Not a put-down, just preferential difference.  I would be delighted to have a pure digital front-end to speaker set-up to try on my speakers to hear the difference.  I have watched and heard the improvements in the digital realm especially over the past 4 years and I believe the best in that realm is yet to come.  Source-wise, especially...  

A serious advantage of a digital amp system is that you can add....or use alone the $500 Minidsp flex.....for tweaking your system or bi-amping. If you have a CD player and that is your only source then you can buy the Flex and use it as your volume control (it has coax digital in and out)......and also use it to completely eliminate room nodes and equalize your speaker.......a big deal....way cleaner sound. Then, if you want to bi-amp your speakers, you can.....either keeping the passive xover in your two way.....or making your own two way speaker......So, that is CD transport to $500 flex to $1500 digital amp and then to your speakers (now totally equalized) or add another $1500 amp and biamp with eq. If you need to stream and use other sources, then you can use the IFI Zenstream or other streamer ahead of the Minidsp and still either equalize or biamp.

All rooms have bass nodes....when eliminated....you have much cleaner sound and better imaging.......So, great digital amp sound plus MORE.....much more.

How about 2 12 inch woofers on an open baffle and above it an AMT or Beryllium tweeter.......biamped.......or a slim box with 2 6.5 inch Purfii woofs and a super tweeter on top of the box.....for dipole highs above 1K......so easy.....so pure sounding to biamp using digital amps and the flex. Lot’s of incredible possibilities......imagination is key.

@tweak1 I am expecting the GAN1 to be better than the LSA Voyager 350 GAN. If so, that would be quite an accomplishment, especially at the price.

Yawn.

Illogical as it is not in step with your audio ideology?

I have tried many class D, GaN and all in one solutions and have always ended up back with separates and no Class D.

To each their own.

Fun conversation about a specific part of the audio reproduction chain, and informative to hear the different points of view. What many have said it’s one part of the experience. Perhaps not near the most important parts, but one we have shared understanding and opinions on. My fun take? Look at the forums on music makers, producers, engineers! That stuff that puts the music in your chain, heck you could spend forever just debating microphones! Oh, and they do! Gee, the way you hear them talk about different pianos, guitars. I wish I could hear any differences. I did hear that the Koln concert piano Keith Jarrett played was a piece of junk, so he played differently to compensate. Best performance ever. Lesson learned? It’s all in making the best of what you have. For those that want a holiday treat - listen to the expanded Charlie Brown Christmas. Loving the alternate takes on such well remembered performances.

IMHO the most recent negative comments must be based on 100% illogical thinking. I have owned many high end tube and SS amps over 5+ decades. My LSA Voyager GaN 350 is excellent and competes favorably with several exotic= uber expen$$$$$ive amps I and my X- audio biz partner had (FYI I am one of the few lucky ones to also have a EVS1200 powerhouse, which is in use as I type), I suspect the GaN1 to be another leap as it provides all the goodness that GaN does while removing a dac, a pre, a transport, and the associated cables, power cords, vibration control, shelving...

Talking in the context of an amplifier about a woman who claims to be brought back to life by god holding her hands tells me everything I need to know about this infomercial. Totally weird!

It's exhausting...

Congratulations, this is the most bewildering thread I have come across in a long time.

Infomercial? I do not sell amps using the EAS modules......You cannot tell the difference between a super enthusiastic person who thinks EVERYONE should know the good news and a salesman?  What if I was preaching religion?.....actually, I preach love.....who is getting paid?  We all get paid in happiness by sharing our knowledge and love with people so they can flourish.  Love is its own reward.  Go on......get excited about something!  WE ARE ALIVE......Live this moment.....it is the ONLY moment you ever have.....there is only the NOW.......you choose to enjoy the now or to resist it.  I choose to enjoy.

There are studies that PROVE that giving makes you happier.......Be of service......lift each other up.....lend a hand....spread the good word on things that are truly worthy.....and doable.

Arguing an unproven philosophy with many highly experienced music lovers and audiophiles is not a road to success I’m afraid.

Different strokes for.... well maybe even a secondary system?

I am posting this from Ralph’s website for a couple reasons. First Ralph is very clear about ... The result is a SOLID STATE amplifier.....

And he says he is using them at home. Well of course he is.

And just today I read of an owner of dual class A Pass Labs and receiving his first electricity bill under his energy suppliers rate hikes! Doubled in price and no relief in sight. Nothing for most movers and shakers, glad I have an old (completely rebuilt/upgraded) A/B Mosfet amp that stays in Class A always due to nearfield listening.

Even with good reviews already in the secondary market.

http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/classD.html

Isn't this an unpaid infomercial? I thought that wasn't allowed here.

I love my Class A Luxman. HOWEVER, digital amps are great for listening to the ball game out in the garage

I suppose this digital amp requires digital speakers.

@bigtwin Can I afford a Boulder, a single amp, yes. A stack of Boulder gear, no.  Being able to afford one and wanting one are different. At one time I desired these uber expensive gear but I did a lot of listening, bought some semi-expensive gear, and later sold them. I now know what I like and the max cost to achieve that (around $65K including speakers). There are more expensive speakers that I would love to have but I can get similar happiness for less.

If I were to be given a Boulder amp for free or something with a smaller form factor, I would take the smaller amp because the Boulder gear is too big. It would annoy the crap out of me just looking at it. There are a lot of mega dollar gear that I would not want. I have heard a lot of them so I know what I would be missing. 

This GAN1 amp I am getting I assume is certainly not going to cut it for my next speakers but what I am curious about is how good is this iteration of the digital GAN gear (Technics, Lyngdorf et al). I wanted to buy the Lyngdorf a few years ago but the amp section really disappointed me. I want to hear where we are with this digital tech today with the GAN1, which is actually more exciting for me to hear than the Boulder (call me crazy). Maybe the next more powerful GAN iteration (with volume and more inputs) will be something to consider.

@yyzsantabarbara If by the comment "I would take the GAN1 gear over the Boulder".....  it means that you, like myself, have as much chance of ever being abel to own a pair of Boulder 3050 Monos as say, a UFO landing in Times Square, being piloted by Elvis, then I would say fair game.  But on the other hand, if you are suggesting that being offered either gear free of charge, you would simply choose to own the GaN1, then I have to say that's just plain silly.  🤣

Technics ...   jus' sayin'   

I would take the GAN1 gear over the Boulder. Boulder is too big, too ugly, and seems like a real waste of money for the seller. "All almost no use, only few hours of operation." It would have been cheaper to come to the same conclusion with a GAN1 or equivalent. 

@bigtwin Haha!! That was really funny 😃😃

@bigtwin 

Thanks for laughs. I needed this as we prepare for winter freeze down in South! 

When asked why he was selling, the answer was obvious.  I'm buying a Peachtree GaN1  🤣

@asctim Season's Greeting.  I have reinvented my system about 3 times in as many years.  Thank you Covid lockdowns.  I have come to the realization that it's time to stop the insanity.  I'm embarrassed by the amount of money I have sunk into this "hobby" and feel it is now time to say DONE.  Well, this spring anyway when the final components arrive.  Prior to this, I went 20 years with the same rig and never had cause to complain.  Now I'm thinking about downsizing into my final house, one that will give me a 20' x 40' entertainment room.  Wait, didn't I just say it's time to stop the insanity.  🤣

@bigtwin I didn't mean to come across in attack mode! It's great that you've got what works for you. I have been happy with many systems in my past but always choose to try new things as I become aware of audible issues and decide to tackle them. It's a hobby after all! The nut I'm trying to crack lately is stereo crosstalk reduction from standard 2 speaker stereo setups and the resulting interference patterns and stereophonic degradation that occurs. Polk, Carver, and Bacch for Mac have provided solutions, as well as others. Up-mixers like Dolby Pro Logic are also an option. All interesting and partially satisfying, but I'm working on a slightly different approach that bears some resemblance to Polk's SDA. The direction this is taking me in is starting to look like a very large high fidelity sound bar, which is making me wonder if I'm just reinventing the wheel. Maybe I should listen to some of the better sound bars?

@asctim Don't shoot the messenger.  I just thought it was a thoughtful review.  According to the OP, the amp in the review is not even the tech he's on about.  Guess it's all above my paygrade.  As it happens, I've made my bed with my end game system and I'm not about to toss it all and start over at this point.  Frankly, when the music sounds as good as it does on my old outdated tech, I just don't think I could appriciate any improvment.  Miles Davis is already standing in my room playing just for me.  What could this new tech do.  Have him standing a little closer to me?  🤣

@bigtwin

But the final word was it doesn’t produce the sound of amps costing 5 or 10 times as much.

What is the sound of amps costing 5 or 10 times as much? Is it an accurate amplification of the input signal, more accurate or more capable of working into lower impedances and maintaining voltage at high current with ultra low distortion and noise than a mere $3000 amp? No, that doesn’t seem to be the case. If anything they add distortion - expensive distortion. And they usually look pretty cool, have some guru’s name behind and some lore about the wizardry and genius applied to the expensive amp. Dr. Earl Geddes said that when he worked on car audio systems they discovered that people actually liked their sound systems to distort when they turned them up. Without that distortion people didn’t feel like they could really get the system to play loud even if the playback was reaching dangerously loud levels! Some people like distortion, and will pay more for it, and because they have a positive response to it they call it "transparent" or "revealing" or some other positive word that describes their personal impression of the distortion. Something about the distortion allows them to suspend their disbelief better and perceive a more realistic sound. It doesn’t work for everybody. The rest of us just shrug our shoulders ’cause it doesn’t sound magically realistic or even particularly good to us, although often it’s still just fine. We’ve heard real instruments and these mega expensive systems continue to exhibit the same audible faults as much less expensive systems. I’ll be honest in saying that I’m disappointed that there’s generally no way forward with even with huge amounts of money to get past certain issues with audio playback electronics, but my ears have demonstrated to me that truth over and over again. To the people who are enraptured with the effects of pre-amps, patch cords and power cables they get the impression that the rest of us are all half deaf. We hear just fine. We just focus more on the major problems that are audibly obvious and not being addressed at all by these devices. It’s not just a simple case of diminishing returns. They’re actually not doing anything at all to address what I want addressed. But that’s ok, because I can come up with my own solutions that get me a little closer. It’s a tough nut to crack and it gives me something to work on.

@ricevs 

I never got a pure digital chain working with power dacs all the way down. I couldn't figure out how to do it affordably. So I've always converted to analog after the digital crossovers and equalization and then went with regular class D amps or whatever solid state amp I had around. For a while I had the Panasonic receivers with PurePath power dacs and used them with a Behringer DEQ2496 but didn't do any crossovers, so it was just used with passive speakers. The Panasonics used Texas Instrument chips which I believe had no feedback. From what I can tell there is not a lot to be gained from the power dac concept but I continue to watch with interest. I love the idea, but a D/A converter before the amp can do an awfully good job of providing a clean analog signal, and a decent class D amp with switching power supply can do a bang up job of amplifying that signal cleanly. So there's not much going wrong there that needs remedy, and dacs may be easier to make work better at the line level than at the speaker power level. What I heard with the Panasonic was a very light and airy sound, which I came to realize later was the bass falling off due to lack of feedback. When I hooked up a JVC hybrid digital feedback amp to the same speakers it sounded a lot thicker and fuller with a LOT more bass. I've read they now have power dacs with feedback but I've yet to hear one. I suspect that if they can get the power response to match a standard analog input digital amp being fed with a decent dac it's going to sound very similar.

Yes, I know about the Exogal......very esoteric, and you have to use it with its own pre/DAC and the cost is high and the power is not great......and you cannot do room correction, bi amp, eq and do whatever.  You have to realize that the inexpensive EAS boards are 4 channel boards.....for instance the 400 watt stereo boards are 4 100 watt single ended channels.  So, if you wanted to use one board for mono tri-amping....then no problem.  Two channels get bridged for 400 watts for your woofs and 100 watts for your mid and highs.....built in to the board is a fully progammable processor (software comes from the manufacturer to set it up any way you want.....xover, eq....whatever....all on the same board).  You could mount one board inside a 3 way speaker and program it to do everything and just drive the board digitally......this is way cool.  Of course there are already boards made like that that people use but they are using conventional DAC chips and op amps on the output of their digtital processor and then using conventional class D or A/B afterwords.  This will be simpler and sonically purer and can be done very fast.

Imagine the fully digital integrated amp with at least 4 inputs, LEEDH lossless volume control, full dsp and 8 channels of amplifier output.  You could mount some drivers on an open baffle and just run wires to the drivers and do all the xover points and eq and time aligning yourself in an hour......sit back and have the best sound you have even heard......this is coming.  ONE FRICKIN box and drivers on a board.......you will play with different drivers instead of saving up for the next 100lb class A amp that costs $100K (that won't give you anything you don't already have)......this is the future......of course, powered speakers will be cool....but who wants to listen to the same drivers all the time.......got to have something to do.  We will all be on forums talking about the latest drivers we have listened to.....amps and preamps and DACs will be dead......for the old fogys.

@ricevs Another digital Class D amp (power DAC) is the Exogal Comet/Ion from the folks who developed one of the first power DACs, ex-Wadia engineers. The Comet/Ion is very transparent, dead neutral, and dynamically expressive. Active speakers have many advantages including no passive xover components and amps chosen to match the needs of their drivers, plus they can also add digital room equalization, listen to speakers from Eikon, Dutch & Dutch, and the KEF LS60s. Digital Class D has the potential to push active speaker systems closer to the goal while keeping costs in check, simplifying circuitry, and easily integrating streaming, active xovers and EQ, I hope many manufacturers take note and develop speaker systems incorporating these ideas.

I love my digital amp.  It can turn a 100Mb digital file into 1Gb file. -Jerry

bigtwin,  You don't understand.  How many times do I have to state this:  This is not a normal Class D amp like the Orchard in the review you posted.  The reviewer has never heard this "digital" amp so he has no reference to this amp nor do you.

Peachtree 400.....AGD.....these are all normal class D that require a Dac in front of it and analog stages in the class D amp.......THIS IS DIFFERENT.  This thread is not about normal class D........but this a DIGITAL AMP!!!!!