Solid state has relatively better THD numbers than tubes. OK, I’ll grant you that. Of course everybody and his brother knows THD doesn’t really mean anything. 🤡
The ups and downs of tube vs. SS...
I’d like to hear from the people that have had both. Why tube? Why SS? What are the ups and downs of both? How does owning one or both differ? I’ve always owned SS, but also lusted after tubes....
jtweed
jtweed
109 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
kosst_amojan Dear God.... That staid dogma about tubes Geoff just spouted is such obtuse nonsense! All this magical jazz people attribute to tubes has practically nothing to do with the tubes themselves. It’s far more a product of the topology. Plenty of solid state amps make that case. Did somebody forget to take his smart pills? I never said I was talking about the tubes themselves, silly goose. I actually already made that very clear. Besides it was not (rpt not) dogma, anyway. I acknowledged that solid state has some strengths. It’s not all black and white in my world as it is in yours. |
I drive some very inefficient electrostats that have impedance curves that drop to 1 ohm with big class A power amps.You might be surprised to find that tube amps can manage a load like that. IME many people think ESLs are inefficient and difficult to drive but I find that isn't completely true- they are often more efficient than thought, and their load can be problematic for certain amps, depending on the ESL. You are quite right that the dip in impedance occurs at high frequencies (plus a low down in the bass where they don't reproduce a signal much at all) I have Martin Logan CLS (original). I did try CJ Premier 11a on them and while doing a pretty decent job, it fell short of the Classe DR3 VHC I currently run on them, despite having 45 w as opposed to 70 w from the CJ. OTOH, that same CJ is magic with my main system Wilson Maxx2, having plenty of punch. Not as much as the Roland 5 I was using with them (now doing AV system service) and the bass is not as convincing, so those organ LPs could use a bit more grunt, but on most acoustic music, magic. So much so that I haven't bothered trying a couple of other power amps I have (bridged pair of DR3 VHC and a Belles A) on that system - too busy listening happily to tibes. |
| Post removed |
"Solid state is cardboard or paper mache. Tubes are liquid and human sounding." That was my (subjective) opinion as well until I heard the Pass XA25 a friend just purchased last week. Paired with his floor standing Omega speakers it sounds lush and gorgeous, even with his Pass SS preamp. It sounded even more captivating when we switched in my Aric Audio tube preamp but I thought it got a bit too syrupy for my taste. Really liked that XA25... |
Anyone that says tubes is better or Solid State is better is full of baloney. I’ve own both though out the years and they both can sound great and horrible too. Every system will sound best with either a SS or Tube designed amp. So you just find what you like and enjoy. I have a bunch of EL34, 300b, 6550, and SS amps and I enjoy them all. |
I was wondering about a tubed buffer stage between source and amp?If you don't need the gain a tube buffer is a good idea. You will loose some voltage with a tube buffer (as it will be a cathode follower); to minimize that and to decrease distortion a mu follower is not a bad idea. The reduced output impedance will allow you to run longer cables and will reduce the sonic qualities of the cable. We've optionally built buffer circuits in our preamps that have direct-coupled balanced outputs. |
| Post removed |
Ralph - really good points and the human hearing system is also hyper sensitive to time and phase...so getting part right only gets you so far IMO tube dac, tube preamp, hybrid high pass amp with just 5 parts in the signal path, time and phase accurate speakers ...ah... but your preamp is on my list to listen to |
There is a good interview by New Record Day of Dan Wright of Modwright. NRD asks, "Tubes or solid state?" Dan answers something to the effect of, he’d prefer not to choose so that he could run a combination. His preference is tubes for the preamp and source gear, and quality solid state for the amplification of that tube signal in the cleanest way possible. Makes sense. I am on day three or so of my new-to-me Modwright KWA-150 SE, which replaced a Rogue Stereo 100, and the overall effect is at least as smooth as the Rogue - maybe smoother. "As long as there are tubes SOMEWHERE in the chain," Dan responded. "But if you make me choose one or the other, I would choose tubes." I run a tubed phono pre (Rogue Ares) and a Modwright (tubed) LS100 Pre, and the combination with the TOTL KWA-150SE is fantastic. |
My favorite is a Fisher 500C unrestored.That won't last long if the filter capacitors don't get replaced. As they fail, they tend to take the power transformer with them. It can get pretty ugly as the transformer might leak nastiness when it gets really hot. So get the caps replaced- and the amp will sound even better. |
@passet02 With all due respect that sounds like an issue with your amp itself not tubes. In my opinion a well built, point to point wired tube amp is harder to break and easier to fix and more prone to long term reliability. Sure there is a certainly level of interaction with your gear you don't get with SS but to me that's the fun part. |
Tube are nice , "But" unreliable , The bias bad tubes go wrong all the time . I can not make year without a problem my amp is in the shop know. Got a year out of it 1st week there was problem I fix it my self after a year I had to send it out . They do sound nice . There are some very good SS out there "BIG BUCKS" Best bet intergrated amp with tube preamp easy to replace and the tubes are 10 bucks |
@jtweed
, thanks a bunch for starting this ’The ups and downs of tube vs. SS...’ discussion because I never would have found out or known anything about the Fisher 500C integrated all tube receiver. @sunrayjack12and @geoffkait, ditto for bringing up in this discussion this little known jewel to me, the Fisher 500C tube integrated all tube receiver. After doing some research I found that this receiver is one of or if not the best value of integrated all tube receiver ever made! I started my research here: STEVE HOFFMAN music forum - ’FISHER all-tube receivers from 1961-66 are cheap and sound wonderful!’ 2010. I then stumbled across the Analog Engineering Associates website and found they restore customers Fisher integrated all tube receivers and sell restored Fisher integrated all tube receivers for as little as $1000. Please see here: http://aeaaudio.com/product/fisher-500c-gold-restoration-sold/. Coincidently, today I will be picking up a SVS PB12 Plus/2 subwoofer with the 12.3 speaker upgrades specifically for its ability to be connected to vintage receivers. I sure am glad I held on to my vintage Henry Kloss KLH Model Seventeen’s. I will be cleaning out my closet of all my 30 - 45 watt analog, solid state, and vintage Pioneer, Technics, Scott, and Cambridge receivers, turntables, speakers and whatever else I have around the house and selling those items just so I can one day buy me a Fisher integrated all tube receiver. |
I love my MC240 amp. It does sound better, especially playing piano music. It is paired with APT Holman preamp, and AR90 speakers. Paid $50 for the AR90s, had to replace the surrounds. I also have 3 sets of Adcom amps/preamps, with various speakers, (KLH, Pioneer) and they sound just fine to me. I pretty much leave them all on all the time, even when there is no music playing, and have not replaced any tubes in the Mac in the year or 2 that I have had it. Before I bought the Mac, the seller had it checked out by a specialist shop. I am content, but seem to have an endless curiosity about speakers. I bought some Klipsch KG4 speakers, wanted to try out those horns, liked them at first, but got weary of them pretty quickly, will sell them when I get around to it. Found out that I prefer the old KLH and even the old Pioneers, both pairs cost less than $100. I use cheap thick speaker wire. My source is a big external hard drive on my desk top computer. I download torrents from P2P sites, all HD (eg flac), never bother with MP3, so it's all free. I concede that vinyl might sound better, but I cannot be bothered trying to keep vinyl clean. I have a dog, and I live in the country, and there is lots of dust in my environment. Clean hard drive sounds better than dirty vinyl. Also I love the convenience of finding/selecting on the computer. Makes it easy to "stack" some music when I go the bed. Or choose a song that I am trying to learn, and be able to have it repeat without putting my guitar down. Or copy onto a cd to play in the car. |
I started with SS, settled on Kenwoods. I love the fact that they had all three tone controls, I believe it's your system and you bought the music so play it how you want to hear it. I tried Vinyl and did not see the big deal, and I grew up with records. I bought a tube amp , an Dynaco ST70, unrestored and loved it. Now I am a tube guy, as much as I love those Kenwoods they just can't keep up with the warmth you feel listening to a tube amp. The sound is far superior to my ears, they are the only test equipment I need or use. I now have tube amps running out my ears, I am a little compulsive, if one sounds this good what will another one sound like? My favorite is a Fisher 500C unrestored. It's my bedroom amp and gets the most listening time, It's like sex for the ears, Blues or classical but it loves everything. Now I know why people love Vinyl, it took tubes to show the way. Unlike a lot of people I just buy my stereos and play them, I build my own speakers but do have a few nice vintage speakers, Altec A7's, Bozak Symphony's,Wharfendale 90's. I had KHorns but sold them, it takes so little power to run these huge speakers, they love the tubes. I bought a Mcintosh SS preamp and a Mc 2105 because I heard so much about Mcintosh. I have not been impressed That Fisher 500C eats that Mc for lunch! Just some of my ramblings, I have always been a skeptic of the popular and have to see for myself, you will never regret going to tubes. |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
Well, to be fair, everything sounds different. Capacitors sound different. Resistors sound different. Fuses sound different. Transformers sound different. Connectors sound different. Cryo’d capacitors sound different. Cryo’s transistors sound different. Cryo’d tubes sound different. See where I’m going with this? |
tyray....there are lots of smart and savvy people here so I find there's someone for every occasion .....and now you're already one of them........a phono pre may be in my future(skipping the long version of this story ) and your mention of Parks Audio Budgie was news to me so did some googling and gets some great reviews and added bonus....I have Eastern Electric cdp which uses two 6922s of which I have a small back stash so ...that works. and I too like many need to find good "budget " items, so also good. Hope you continue to post. Most people here are eager to help. |
jtweet, I did not mention that I am pairing my Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier with my solid state Panasonic SA-HE200 receiver or any other receiver for that matter downstream works well too. koss_amojan, whatever the magic is with tubes, my Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier at $399 with the pair of NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922’s at $454 beats the heck out of spending a couple of thousand dollars on interconnects and another couple of thousand dollars on a turntable for better quality sound. Not to mention the $1748 Pro-Ject Phono Box RS MM/MC and the companion Pro-Ject battery powered Power Box RS power supply that I fortunately sold for cost. I took a $200 Pioneer PL-600 direct drive turntable (the silver one) and upgraded the headshell with Ortofon LW-800S headshell wires and the above mentioned Shure V15VxMR cartridge with the JICO (Shure) VN5xMR stylus, rewired the tonearm with KAB SuperFlex Tonearm wire and hardwired the phono interconnects with the very inexpensive but value added Blue Jeans Cable LC-1’s with the preamp output interconnects being Blue Jeans Cable LC-1’s also. I have 2 used Power Sound Audio V1081 subwoofers for left and right bass with again the Blue Jeans Cable LC-1’s subwoofer interconnects. My front left, right and center speakers are Miller & Kreisel Professional MPS-2510’s with again, Blue Jeans Cable 12 gauge 5000UE speaker wire. And all these modestly priced components perform flawlessly with each other. And without the Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier with the pair of NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922’s I don’t think my modestly priced system would sound as good. And the receiver upgrade is the next upgrade for me. It’s just that every time I see an Anthem 1120 receiver on ’Gon I don’t have all the money to pull the trigger, but I’m working on it. This is the first time I have posted here after years of lurking. Thanks to all you good folks who have posted here to help me make better decisions about that VERY EXPENSIVE hobby of trying to be an audiophile! It is much appreciated! |
Just like tubes, different transistors sound different. Tube equipment manufacturers are very quick to tell you what tubes are used in the products. However, transistor equipment manufactures typically don't tell you what is being used, the circuitry or topology. So, as usual it comes down to what you like when you are listening. I have hear some amazing tube amps and pre-amps. Likewise, I have also hear some amazing solid state amps and pre-amps. Don't let anyone fool you. both are great. I would take either. It comes down to your style and listening preference. But, as I have mentioned many times, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. First, establish a sound you really like. Second, establish a price range/point that offers products within that price range/point. Third, then go find tube and solid state equipment that you can listen to, hopefully in your home system or if not, in the store on the same equipment. Those really are the only two ways you can really tell the difference. Also, don't let people when demonstrating equipment change other equipment at the same time. Remember, apples to apples. Listen to a tube amp on some equipment, then change out that amp for a solid state amp (same requirements and price point), changing absolutely nothing else and listen again. some dealers like car dealers have certain models that absolutely are trying hard to sell and will try to set them up so that they seem better than others. The only way to tell is apples to apples comparisons. It is difficult, but there are tube fans out there that refuse to hear anything else, not matter how great or innovative the other product is. Same can be said for solid state fans. I'm a fan of excellent engineering and great sound regardless of whether it is solid state or tube. Great sound is great sound. Every designer has compromises in the designs and sound of their equipment. Unless the product is a cost no object design. A good dealer will help you with this if they carry great solid state and tube equipment. Audio shows are good also, but you can't really compare there. but fun non-the-less. enjoy |
Uh, when most people talk about tubes in the context of tubes vs solid state electronics I am pretty sure they’re referring to the whole electronics package. It’s an expression. You know, like I like tubes. Or I like how tubes sound. In that vein. 💉 When someone says I like transistors or I like how transistors sound chances are great he is not referring to actual transistors per se. |
| Post removed |
first, i encourage you to buy a reasonably priced tube amp to compare to your SS amp. that is the best way to hear the obvious differences b/w the two. the tubes give you the ability to tune your sound more specific to the desires of your ear and to "match" our speakers, both sonically and electrically. This is a huge topic with thousands of forum pages written. dont get me wrong, I'm glad this thread started, just trying to offer you more outlets to do some quick reading, learn the basics, and get out fo the starting gate. GO TO AN AUDIO SHOW!! you will see literally hundreds of SS and amp units. also, many of us, use "hybrid" amp that have tubes in the PreAmp and SS in the Amp section. this gives most of us the best of both worlds. but again, whether a SS amp or Tube, it takes learning and practiced to get a good match b/w amp and speakers. many of us spend years playing around with different units and combos to get different sounds. Its my hobby, I love it! |
I drive some very inefficient electrostats that have impedance curves that drop to 1 ohm with big class A power amps.You might be surprised to find that tube amps can manage a load like that. IME many people think ESLs are inefficient and difficult to drive but I find that isn't completely true- they are often more efficient than thought, and their load can be problematic for certain amps, depending on the ESL. For example Sound Labs are hard to drive for solid state, as you need about 800 watts to keep up with a 200 watt tube amp on the same speaker. This is because the speaker is 30 ohms in the bass, which knocks the solid state amp down to about 200 watts, while a tube amp is unaffected. At the extreme top end a Sound Lab is 1.5 ohms and our amps (which don't do particularly well with low impedances as they are OTLs) don't have any problems with them. 1 ohm (if correct) is not crazy bad for a tube amp because it occurs at 20KHz where there is little energy. So you might want to try a tube amp on the speaker and see. OTOH, Martin Logan ESLs are typically about 0.5 ohms at 20KHz and no tube amp does them well (they sound rolled off in the highs) without a set of ZEROs (www.zeroimpedance.com) to boost the impedance. |
Like others here I've owned some powerful, high quality SS amps. The good ones always sounded terrific... until I compared them back to back with my conrad-johnson tube amps. Owning both at the same time allowed switching out amplifiers as quickly as changing speaker leads. Listening back to the same material, the music was always better with tube amplification. Always more three dimensional and listenable. Excitingly real. Maybe it's c-j's philosophy of simple circuits with super high quality parts but it has worked for me over the years without exception. My music preference is acoustic jazz and classical, not sure this effect works as much with rock music. If you like music made by acoustic instruments, try a good tube system. It's heavenly. |