2. amps-preamps
  3. 1091025247

tube amp shoot-out

To follow the complete thread, see "tube amps $2000-$3200 below." Here are the results of my amp shootout from last weekend. I had at home the Conrad-Johnson MV60SE, the Rogue Stereo 90, and the Manley Mahi-Mahi monoblocks.

The Rogue, in short, I found silky (my listening partner's term, but it fits) but dull overall. The bass was thick and undistinguished. Plenty of energy on rock and pop (I admit to being a less particular listener in that music), and sorted things out reasonably on most classical music, but the presentation was just kind of disinterested. That's not a very clinical analysis, I know, but it was the overall impression.

The C-J sounded simply gorgeous on everything I played. Never ran out of steam on even the largest orchestral/choral music, every instrument true to life--with the exception of some of the natural air that surrounds voices and instruments in live performance. That's mainly what I missed: a certain amount of sparkle to the sound.

The Mahi-Mahi had all the sparkle and life that the C-J lacked. I really loved this amp--and the little monoblocks look sparkly as well. Vocals were stunning, chamber music was mesmerizing and sucked me right into the performance. I played this amp in both triode and ultralinear mode (as I did with the Rogue; the C-J came factory-set in UL mode), and which sounded better depended on what music was playing. The great failing of the Mahi's, for me, was in orchestrl music, which it really didn't seem to be able to handle very well. It didn't sound like it was running out of steam, just gave a confused presentation. Instruments were sometimes unidentifiable, multi-layered textures were clouded. Since I'm an orchestral conductor, this was an insurmountable problem for me, and quite depressing, because I loved everything else about this amp. One other exception: After a certain volume level (and I'm no head-banger), the sound got a bit glaring, which didn't happen on either the Rogue or the C-J. Is this what people mean by "tube glare"?

So the overall winner would be the Conrad-Johnson, because it had many virtues and did nothing at all wrong. But I didn't buy any of them. I guess I really want the life and love of the Manley, with the control of the C-J. I wonder, for another $2000, do the Manley Snappers have all that???

My system:

Nottingham Interspace/Dynavector 20X-H
Sony XA20ES cdp
Rogue 99 pre/phono
ProAc Response 2.5 speakers
Cardas/MIT/Analysis Plus cables

So, still looking! Hope to bring home a Cary Rocket 88 and the Rogue M-120 or M-150 monoblocks in a couple of weeks.
kmikey
tmback
2 posts
 
Tpsonic,

The Innersound iTube is still on the Innersound web page
at http://www.innersound.net/itubeover.html

I was wondering why you don't own one of Terry and Steve's
amps? You seem to promote them quite a bit.

I owned serial number 001 for a few months, and while it
had incredible dynamics for a 150 watt tube amp, and can
drive any load, at any phase angle, it sounds more like a solid
state amp, than a tube amp. That is not to say it is bad, in fact,
it is actually what Steve and Terry want the amp to sound like,
but if you are looking for a "tube sound," this is not the amp to
buy, IMHO.

It did have a way of driving electrostatics at the high frequencies
that I have not heard any other amp match. Wonderful extension
and detail. The upper midrange can be too much of a good thing,
however, depending on your speakers and tastes.
tpsonic
1,092 posts
 
Tmback, I believe that "Steve &Terrys' amp desrves exposure and a home audition.Had you tried their amp with a speaker other than the Innersound Eros?Were you also using the Innersound audio cables?{ICs/speaker}
I prefer an amp that doesn't euphonically color the sound.Many tube amps will add extra warmth,at the expense of natural deatail.Even the Vivas that I use,would have some of those "solidstate" attributes.No fat midbass and rolled extremes.
I had hoped that "they" would have their monos ready,I'd love to audition them.The stereo unit probably couldn't
find a home in my system,not with my set-up.
Tmback, did they finish the passive crossover for your Eros yet?? You might try the amp again after this "mod"..The out-board crossover produces a slight suck-out.Maybe the source of your "solidstate" designation.
cellorover
417 posts
 
I did the same comparison 2 years ago. I fully agree with your findings. I really wanted to go with the Manelys, especially as size was important. Despite how lovely the Mahi Mahi were, they just did not have enough power (for my speakers). I bought the MV 60SE and then the CJ MF2250A. At first, I did not like the SS amp, but when I upgraded my front end, the 2250A was the clear winner. It needs a very good front end. It is a sleeper. The MF 2500A takes the 2250A two+ levels up in terms of liquidity, quietness, specificity, bass detail, soundstage and head room, but it is not in your price range. There are used ones out there and the "reconditioned ones" are factory amps with either small blemishes or were used at a trade show (static). Give them some consideration. The BC 24 with non-stock tubes is better than the MV 60SE and sits between the 2250A and 2500A. And, if you want to really throw a monekey wrench into the works, audition the Channle Island mono blocks. And, watch for the next pair of CI mono blocks!

Where in your system are your different cables? You may have some cable interaction that is not allowing the system to perform its best.

Finally, your amps may be just fine. It may be time to mod your CDP. This may prove to be the next step that gives you the biggest bang for the buck.
tmback
2 posts
 
Tpsonic,

I see you have been talking to Steve and Terry. I too,
think their amp deserves exposure. Why do you think my
post was negative? I wasn't the one that said it sounded
like a solid state amp, it was Steve that told me himself
that they want their amp to sound like a fine solid state
amp, not a rolled or fat sounding tube amp. The only issue
I had with the amp was a forward sounding upper midrange.

Terry has modified an iTube for a customer that dealt with
voicing the iTube, and he loves the modded amp. And with
personal preferences, I think most tube lovers like a forward
"bloom" to the sound of their amps.

You did get one thing wrong, however. I have the ISIS,
not the EROS speakers, and I tested the amp with the
electrostatics, and three other dynamic speakers systems
(and with four other amps). The sound of the iTube was
essentially the same with each speaker, and I also heard
the same quality with a pair of Quad 57's.

I used 6 different speaker cables, 5 from the Cable Company,
and the Innersound dynamic cable, not the ESL cable, about
$10,000 worth of cable. Each cable had its own sound, but
the basic sound of the iTube was clearly heard though all
the cables.

I am looking forward for them to make custom passive
crossovers for my Isis, and to hear the monoblocks. In
the mean time, I bought a pair of large tube monoblocks,
that really make my ISIS sing.

But I am always open to better sound, and I think Steve and
Terry's custom crossovers will do the trick.

I am a bit confused why you think I was putting a negative
spin on their amp, I was surly not. It is a very special amp.
It just didn't match my system.

What I don't understand is why you don't purchase their
amplifier, and help Steve and Terry out?
tpsonic
1,092 posts
 
TMback, I didn't originally bring the "solidstate" designation to this posting.Maybe a reread is in order.
I also explained that a stereo unit was not applicable to my system,nor was one available to audition when I was amp shopping.They were still working the bugs out of the design.There were some corners cut,when Innersound was negotiating the contract for this amp.I'm sure you remember that Terry had to "go back in" on your 001 unit.They decided to give Innersound that unit to satisfy them,after they offered him $350 profit on each $9000 amp.It might have been wiser to purchase your Innersound "package" from WRAD.They would have helped with set-up and technical advice.Since then ,there has been a Mu shielding installed around the transformers and some other mods.
It is a shame that you didn't contact me after our original conversation at WRAD.The Walker links would have solved many of your complaints.You might try a pair on your current speakers.If you had heard the transformation that took place,you might have kept the combo.
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