I've requested advice on where to upgrade my system before but have decided the biggest improvement would be in improving either my speakers or turntable or both.
Current system is:
LSA 1 Statement monitors
Rhythmik E15HP subs x 2
Clearaudio Concept w/ Concept MC cart
NuPrime DAC10 as preamp and DAC
Eastern Electric Minimax phono pre w/ NOS tubes
Emerald Physics 100.2SE power amp
Clearday Double Shotgun speaker cables
Audio Art IC3SE interconnects
The plan is to keep the Concept MC cart but sell the turntable. I really don't want to go above $3000 and would prefer to buy from a dealer whether it be online or brick and mortar. I'd prefer a deck w/ an arm as I've really only done plug and play solutions up to this point. Some current options would be:
Nottingham Space Deck 294 w/ Nottingham arm (recent production trade-in to dealer) - heard good things about the table but many comments about how the arm isn't as good. All the recommendations are for arms in the $2000 plus range. I can demo this at a dealer, so that's a big plus. However, not any recent reviews. The dealer also carries Michelle and Well-Tempered, would love to her the Gyrodec SE and the Amadeus GTA though both of these would be out of my price range new.
Pro-Ject RPM 10.1 or 10 Carbon (demo or pre-owned) - seem to come up frequently at online retailers. Seem to go in the $2000 range and reviews are very positive.
VPI Prime (demo or pre-owned) - the price hike bothered me but the demo prices are significantly lower and demo models seem commonly available. The reviews of this table are insanely positive across the board, not sure whether to take them with a grain of salt.
Gem Dandy Super12 Polytable - $3000 new by George Merrill. If I had the money I'd probably get a REAL and I've never seen the Super12 come up used. No official reviews of the Super12 version yet. The reviews of the standard polytable mention beautiful soundstaging and midrange but say that the low end is a little lacking which is a concern for me. I would hope that the Super12 would fix that.
Clearaudio Performance DC w/ Clarify or Satisfy arm - (used) This would be the most obvious choice as an upgrade from the Concept, better deck and better arm. Also, the used price is easier on the wallet. However, I read a reviewer that reviewed each one after the other and preferred the VPI Prime. Also wonder how much of an improvement I'd really get moving up one deck in the line. Floor vibrations are not a problem in my room, concrete floors so not concerned w/ that aspect of the tonearm. The cart should be a perfect fit as well.
Avid Diva II SP - Reviews seem to suggest that to get the most out of this deck you need a higher end arm. Also you don't get many offered used by dealers.
Ok, so that's my list. Please keep reco's to those tables on the list whether good or bad. Any opinions?
I picked up a Boston audio mat 1 off eBay for about $45 less than what the 1 remaining dealer is selling them for new.
Im a skeptic with tweaks, apart from proper vibration isolation. The first record I played showed obvious improvement in micro detail and that continued with every record I played. Space between instruments improved and the stage was more stable and assured. Why is that? There was an obvious decrease in low end bloat that was fairly subtle but easily masking details through the audio band and meshing everything into a blur instead of clearly separated instruments forming a greater whole.
On Dean Peers Airborne there are delayed bass lines that echo outside of the speakers. These were so much more detailed and easily heard.
Alice In Chains unplugged, you can hear the individual strings within the chord so much more clearly where before it sounded like the bass on the acoustic guitar amp was turned up over the treble. The bass guitar lines are cleaner and the second acoustic guitar on the left side of the stage stands out much more easily after joining in on the song nutshell.
On yello's 30000 days from Toy, there was an obvious reduction in low end bloat. This a bass heavy track and the spoken word vocals are very rich. All of this is cleaned up with sacrificing extension.
Best of all, the essential tone of the table, arm, and cart remained the same but the detail has been greatly enhanced. I will never use the original foam mat again.
Just let me say that before adding the mat1 I wasn't convinced there was that much improvement to be had via tweeks. I was wrong.
He probably meant not to put the table on a thick maple platform and then on the rack. That would be different from my set-up, so he can be right, it can also give some ringing. By the way, I have Boston Audio tuneblocks for speakers under my spiked speakers and yet another set under my Nakamichi cassette deck. One more thing you could try after everything else is set is to get Walker Audio SMALL resonance control disc, $50, and put it very close to the motor on the shelf or whetever your tables sits on, not touching anything. This made a subtle but audible improvement in my sytem. And I put another one on top of my deck - same effect.
Yes, get the mat while you can. If, and it is highly unlikely, you don't like it there should be no problem of selling it. The mat tightened things up, increased clarity and balance. I do not use any clamp, never felt the need to try. As for maple, I am not sure what he meant. I have the table on a 3" maple block which in turn sits on three big Boston Audio tuneblocks, and all that is on the wooden floor close to the left speaker. My rack is not good enough for the table. Nothing is dull, but I only compared to the Nottingham MDF platform and the maple was better and heavier, more stable. I wouldn't jump near the table but I walk near it without thinking. You don't want to push that block, though, because it sits on three metal balls. But since the maple block is quite heavy and so is the table, it is stable enough for me, but still you should be careful around it. I know that some people use Symposium platforms under Nottinghams and like it a lot. I might try it in the future but for now I just have this $75 maple block that I got on ebay.
Ok, I've been just guestimating by looking at the head shell and also listening.
I'll have to try that mat, the dealer was a bit of a non believer about any tweaking (somewhat refreshing) but it doesn't really point you to any avenues you might want to explore first. He did say that maple dulls the sound of the table and do not use a clamp under any circumstances. I'm not sure my inner child can resist trying though
In my system - big, but I didn't try anything else except the stock one, in this particular case I blindly followed the advice of many Audiogon fellows. Oh, I set the VTA by listening and it ended up there, no not the cartridge.
Do you use the head shell, the arm tube or the cartridge body to determine level with the ace space arm? I'm having a harder time eye balling it, the shape of the arm appears to taper from wider to thinner as it reaches the head shell
With my cartridge, Goldring 1042 MM, changing anti-skate back and forth made quite a difference. VTA, I ended up with the arm in parallel, though it is not perfect for every record.
Ok, thanks for the info. I haven't messed with the antiskate, the dealer setup the cart but the tail up VTA didn't work at all in my system, sounded damn good in theirs though w/ 6 ground tube mono blocks and 20 grand speakers. I'm still fine tuning the VTA but if it's not perfect it's close.
joegator81, yes, Boston Audio appears to be no more. I can't remember exactly but I think it was $150 or $200 new, so $250 seems fair. Just about anyone I heard of uses this mat with the Spacedeck. Yeah, no rush to upgrade the cartridge.
All that being said and as much as I like the clearaudio concept MC cart I'm thinking of upgrades (of course). My immediate thoughts went to the ortofon cadenza bronze (the tonal descriptions are right up my alley) or the kiseki blue NS (recommended by the hwdsound). Both should work fine w/ the arm. I won't be able to upgrade immediately and I'm also thinking of speaker and amp upgrades in the future (low power tube amp and something efficient like Tekton or used Audio Note??? or Rogue ST100 or NuPrime ST10 and something from philharmonicaudio, bmr or phil 3's possibly???). This hobby never ends...
yeh, I know its a problem for some people but the turn is so smooth that it allows you to really feel the quality and very fine tolerances to which this table was made.
I have the original Nottingham oil and I'm sure I could get more form hwdsound. They too said approx. every year. I'm keeping an eye out for the boston audio mat as it seemed to come up quite a bit in my research of these tables. Seems they aren't being made any more and there is only one dealer/distributor that has what is left of them for $250. Is that a fair price?
Congrats joegator81. I have only heard Nott once, but I believe you have made a great choice. Enjoy the new table. Very cool that you don't mind giving the platter the Nott nudge (-:
Just make sure you use original Nottingham kinetic oil and change it every year or year and a half depending on how much you play the table. Do not underfill, better overfill. If you can find Boston Audio graphite Mat 1 get it right away. I didn't try Mat 2. Welcome to the Nottingham club.
I ended up with the Notts 294. It was a one year old trade in to hwdsound, the original owner traded up to a higher model. So far I am very very happy with my decision, there is an obvious improvement over the very good clearaudio concept. My concept MC works beautifully with the 12" notts arm.
Also, this table is built like a tank and I love the hands on stop/start of the platter.
The room is large but is as well treated as it can get - wall traps, corner traps, curtains, heavy rug. Not too dead, not too lively. Didn't mention it because there's not much else to do. The room sounds great.
Thanks for all the recos. I'd love to hear all of these. The Notty is really the only possibility unless I can find some local dealers with demos or used decks. Don't think there is any way to demo the Gen Dandy Super 12, however it gets nothing but love in the forums.
I was recently in a similar situation wanting to upgrade my Concept to a better deck. Despite what the reviewer thought I compared the Performance DC and the VPI Prime in my home system and I came to the opposite conclusion. To me the Performance was more natural sounding than the Prime. The Prime seemed overblown to me and the cartridge did not sound the way I know it can.
This was with the AMG Teatro as the cartridge. The cartridge is what prompted me to upgrade the table as it would not mate well with the Concept. This may have had an impact on my impressions but I bought the Performance. I have heard a Prime with a Koetsu cartridge that sounded great so I know the Prime is a good TT. I just preferred the Performance. This is just my opinion and YMMV. I suggest you use your own ears to decide and not any reviews. That way you know exactly what you are getting. Good Luck!
I like Nottingham. I bought a Mentor 20 years ago, and it has been upgraded to something quite exceptional. Bearing is still quiet as the grave.
The 1997 arm was not up to the table, though. Mainly, adjustment was a pig. Talk to your dealer about VTA and azimuth adjustment, and see if this modern arm does it better.
An option for $1000 is what I use: Trans-Fi Terminator (low pressure, no maintenance air bearing). Punches far above its weight. You don't see those used, at all. Wonder why?
Michell Gyro SE with SME V arm and tipped with a Lyra Delos cartridge. A very nice combination you will love to live with for the next several decades. You should be able to find all three here on the Gon....previously owned.
the bass was definitely a concern with this table after reading some of the reviews. I think fremer said it was a little limited (the standard poly w/ 750D arm). Is it the super12 upgrades that improve the low end or are you hearing better results in your system than he was in his?
That being said, he still gave it a class B which is impressive considering the company, assuming the super12 might make class A?
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