Upsampling DACS: Take the Pepsi Challenge

Thanks Megasam, the HFNRR article was most interesting. Thanks Greysquirrel for going to a source with cred. I agree with Carl's first 8/2 posting -- yes, you are not the real expert here. BTW, you really do owe Deborah1 an apology. Your 8/1 comments are way out of line, IMHO.

Thanks Onhwy61, but no apolpgy necessary from Carl. His remarks were so outrageous that I just had to laugh. I guess I did get SOME retribution: it seems us "less curious" types are not as easily swayed by what in the end is MARKETING HYPE! (see my post on 7/31) And this from Carl's FAVORITE digital guy, Jeff Kalt @ Resolution Audio! BTW Carl, kudos to you for sticking to your guns: I've seen on another thread ("What is Resolution Audio") that you even DISAGREE with MR. KALT on this topic of upsampling! Seriously though, we must all remember one thing, and this just might come to aid Carl's position in this matter (is that ironic or what)....Just because we have no rational explaination for how or why something affects sound reproduction, that does not mean it has no real effect; especially if "skilled" listeners hear a difference. Our brains seem to be able to perceive HUGE differences in sound quality where none exist on the test bench or in the designers lab. So maybe upsampling falls into this catagory; it can't be justified from a technical point of view, but it still somehow improves our perception of the quality of reproduced sound. But I do think Jeff Kalt made a valid point in his e-mail to Greysquirrel: different is not always better, or more accurate. And thanks Greysquirrel: this has been one of the most heated thread topics I can remember!

I also emailed Madrigal Audio with the question of upsampling vs oversampling. I think it's fair to say that Madrigal also makes some pretty fine digital products, and I have their ML 37 transport and ML 360S DAC. Their response-- from Customer Relations: "We're actually about ready to post a position paper on this very subject on our (web) site. You'll see it there soon. To help our Mark Levinson customers understand more about what's going on inside their processors (already), we're about to release new software that will allow the customer to see the output sampling rate (versus the input rate, which is what they see in the display now) with the touch of a few buttons. Mind you, this is all the new software does; add a feature not a capability, as OUR DACs HAVE BEEN DOING THIS UP-SAMPLING (OVER-SAMPLING) FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. Stay tuned and thanks again for asking about the facts versus the hype." Todd Sutherland, Madrigal Audio. (emphasis mine re: capital letters). As to the differences in music quality/character among different CD players and DACs, I think the Theta Digital response summed it up best: "implementation techniques vary". Madrigal has a nice web site, and I recommend that anyone interested in this subject check out their position paper. I don't know exactly when it will be posted. This whole thread has been very informative-- well mostly. Thanks. Craig

There are those of you who seem to relish in your opinion that my views on this subject are irrational, and for that, you owe me an apology...not the other way around. I'm only defending my own viewpoints, here, afterall. And if you persist in harping about Jeff Kalt, I may just e-mail him myself, to see if the above comments from him are even real. I am a skeptic, afterall, at least as much so as you think you are...

Hi Carl; I certainly hope you don't think (that I think) that your opinions are irrational on this subject-- we're all doing our best to understand it and its significance. You actually understand many of the details of this complex engineering subject, whereas I never will. I respect you, your views, and enjoy your posts. As to this subject; as a result of responses from Jeff Kalt (by Greysquirrel), Theta Digital, and Madrigal Audio, I've concluded that I was totally wrong about over-sampling vs upsampling-- these industry leaders apparently consider them the same thing, and I for one am glad to finally know this. My ego wasn't bruised at all when I found that my perceptions were wrong. As to differences in sound quality of digital components, I'll say again that Theta Digital is probably right when they say "implementation techniques vary". And that also explains why dCS gear may be so good (and so expensive) while others are building "up-sampling" components for a few hundred dollars. I'm looking forward to seeing Madrigal's position paper. Cheers. Craig.