What I wish I knew before starting my audiophile journey

Come to the Florida Audio Expo in Tampa February 17-19 and hear first hand 80+ vendors systems.  Talk to the manufacturers, listen, and then decide what works for you.

Battery backup system with dedicated pure sine wave inverter for audio and home office. <$4k DIY

You will never be able to control the power quality coming from the utility company.

You can have the most expensive distribution box you can build, with gold plated or “pure copper” everything, spend 10s of thousands on internal home wiring, but if the available grid power is, shall we say ”inconsistent”, having “pristine” power circuits inside the house won’t help.

Need to provide a source of “clean” and consistent power first.

Nothin like having the electric utility have a power outage then someone turn the power on/off/on/off  6+ times in a minute, then have a 3 day power outage.

 

I hit audio nirvana by accident.... no dedicated lines, special cables. or really high priced equipment although I do have systems that fits that description. I do woodworking and wanted to make some pretty speakers that sounded good so I bought some walnut and added fostex tweeters, two B&W Cm9 midranges to each, a scanspeak woofer, and a mirage subwoofer. The crossover came from China that I bought new on ebay. It was my third system and I had a 150 watt per channel Nad amp lying around so I used it although this particular amp didn’t have outstanding reviews. I wanted to use it for the TV so added two bose speakers in back (don’t faint because it obviously isn’t 2 channel). I put a flashdrive in my Oppo 103 and pushed play and it blew me away. The whole room unexpectedly came alive with music. Pink Floyd and Lambchop never sounded quite so good. What I wish I knew is I could have done it for that price all along.

@strawj @1971gto455ho 

Yes, I know what you mean.

By no means did I want to hijack someone else's thread, but after half a night with you guys, and having difficulty to shake off, or shape the other half of the morning today I am calling it a quit.

It is 10 degrees F here in Loveland, CO and It is time for me to get into the electric grid with my sore eyelids wiring those cans in the ceiling!

Thanks, Chris.

I think isolating all your audio gear on a dedicated line direct from panel is a must.

 

Also I am  a big fan  of designers that take the approach of using external power supplies.

Especially in pre amps streamers &DACs

With regard to room treatments based on my experience with the room I built just for my 2 channel rig.

Play different music emphazing different instruments

To determine which frequency ranges sound good.

I had great upper bass in my room but never liked saxophone tracks. Then I experimented with more diffusion on front wall. Absorption/diffusion at first reflection points including the ceiling and this really improved the sound.

So as I mentioned previously Room Treatment is very crucial.

Enjoy the journey

@sns 

Well we haven't met but you can count me in that group.

Motorcycles since I was 8 years old, still have first bike that I built, '76 HD rigid frame chopper.

Cars too numerous to count in my teens.  And I still have my first "real" car, '68 427 ragtop vette.

Forget about stereo, too much to list. Not sure if I've spent more $ on stereo or Corvettes!

Regards,

barts

 

dman1974 some posts seem to have got little off point (!) as usual. When I read your original post I just thought YES! Right on you are so right that is the right advice. Speakers-Power-Cables even a semi modest system (like my own) can sound pretty pretty good. TY DMAN74.

@waytoomuchstuff Interesting to hear a dealer's perspective on this, I often assume others as attentive to small details as I am.

 

I've also run in motorcycle and car circles nearly all my life, seems like I'm always around OCD type people! Can't recall meeting another audiophile, motorcycle and car nut in one package.

@ecpninja 

Exactly,

the Eqi=Tech wall cabinet (sub panel) is meant exclusively for dedicated room/only audio equipment need. I will use five of the available six 20 Amps separate circuits in 5WQ for my own use.

I'll leave the sixth one available for family's future needs after I will eventually be no more, and after one day, perhaps some of them might grow into appreciating taste of sound in music and not a noise, as an alternative to selling it all at a steep lose.

I already prepared five Romex 10-2 runs, twisted with my own hands and into a flex metal conduit/shield. Four of equal lengths in a cluster of (3) on the front wall /adjacent corner on the long wall, and one 70' on the other end of the same, long wall.

Equi=Tech engineer told me that I did not need all of this twisting and shielding, but what a heck, it is already done and is hanging in the joists! It was; however, a back twisting job, and I was on it for two months with a bright sun shining outside last summer.

Again, I appreciate all of your responses @sns. Yours is a big help for a newbie to stay the course, and I am glad that somehow crediting own intuition I ended up with a different instinct. However, there is not one audiophile without a bad turn, or a U-turn on this seductive journey.  

As long as our ears are still analog, they’ll be a need to connect with the air and move it around in our listening spaces. Precision raw speaker drivers, robust amplification, meaty cables, and the power from the wall to make it all happen will be essential elements of a audiophile system for some time to come. Until we have the tech to communicate those digital sources telepathically, or have a port installed and a digital bitstream connected directly to our brains, those "old school’ things will matter. It’s also irrelevant whether those items are internal, external, active or passive, the sames rules apply. Even short cables runs (inches) and termination methods make a differece. Yes, we can split hairs here and debate the gradients of various solutions, but that same stuff matters, whether it’s sonic impactt is 1% or 90% on sound quality.

What we invest in our system depends on a number of factors. Some of us have the ability to select "this" AND "this". Most of us have to choose between "this" OR "this". Just like a portfolio of "adenelin stocks" -- the one’s you choose because you want the excitement of playing in the stock market, your audio gear investment needs to be money you can afford to loose, or at least a good chunk of it.

As far as dealers are concerned (I’m a retired one), not all customers are rugged individuals who relish in the aspect of taking on the magnitude of information out there to select the "right" system. They are busy people in many cases. Or, they’re emotionally and financially involved in their classic car, motorcycle, guitar, watch or wine collections. Audio is something they enjoy, but they’d rather take a deep dive into turbos vs superchargers discussion than vinyl vs streaming. Many came to us with a "save the labor pains, just give me the baby" attitude. They want to push a button and emerge themselves (and, their guests) in music and movies, and could care very little about dampening factors, black backgrounds, or FLAC vs MQA. Service and support is a high priority for them. There are dealers who have dedicated their careers to providing a high level of integrity as good stewards of their customer’s money.

 

@limbonner  Rex and Bob Hungerford of Kingrex Electric show off their audiophile-grade electrical service panel. 

@johnah5 

Thanks for asking.

First I purchased Tannoys Churchill by PBN and then Viking Acoustics' Grande Voix in full grain heirloom wood, and now I definitively do not consider either one to be a mistaken identity.

Maybe then I considered it as such, perhaps to justify a run after my retirement fund. But as I said earlier it is still unknown what I shall discover once the Room is finished. I am the one who purchased the speakers at blank (blind) point relying on one of the most intriguing stories on this forum. So far I don't have a problem with this while consuming most of my energy and focus on building the room in my basement (26 X 15+ X 8 1/2 ceiling).

Eventually I will share the system, the room and my discoveries, and I will most likely have a tons of questions in the future as I go with the journey.

Always appreciate everyone's knowledge on this forum, Chris.

@chriszponder Good to hear your son recovering!

 

I hear you on how expenditures on audio system can overwhelm our finances. I always tried to stick to rules of not buying anything on credit, having to sell something, didn't need to be audio related, to help in purchasing new additions. This has worked out pretty well for me, can't say the same about motorcycles and cars!

 

I also believe the Equi-tech is all you'll need. I have BPT, another balanced transformer based conditioner. Previously owned earlier iterations of PS Audio power plants, they went away, BPT far superior. I transferred one of my PS Audio to home theater system, provides good service there.

 

I agree highly unlikely someone's going to optimize AC and room prior to any hardware purchases. One's necessarily going to start with amp, speakers and source, assuming one hasn't paid attention to room and AC, they're  likely to begin the churn, always blaming the equipment, ignorant of how large a contribution AC and room bring.

I would agree clean power is crucial.if you can run a dedicated line direct fron breaker panel that is a great start.

Also I would spend a lot of prep time with speaker placement and room treatment  .

 

Sorry for the split thread. It is too early in the morning, or else too late into the night.

But instead to keep them as a treasure to be discovered at a later time, while pursuing the wonder of this hobby on other fronts.

In the meantime I became so intoxicated with the possessive nature of this hobby that I almost killed my own son then 26, with ignorance while cancer devoured his body, and I was blind to see it coming.

Fast forward, and a happy one is that Paul has recovered thus far, and we are back into building our dedicated sound room.

In the meantime; however, I sacked half of my retirement fund and an equal amount in savings depleting it entirely in the process with two complete systems built around two sets of speakers, while sharing a rather frugal analog rig based on Pro-Ject X10 TT @ Herron Vtph-2A.

With that being said and upon listening to many of you respected members here on Audiogon, I realized early on that without a dedicated and properly treated sound room, there is no sense to unravel the bounty of over $ 120K in accumulated audio gear until the room is finished.

It has taken me already three years along with successively sacking my son's cancer, and it seems another year to go before I can hear a single note of sound. Until then the fruits of this effort remain unknown, but what I can say is that it was much easier to spurge $120 K on the audio gear than to tackle the sound room. The complexity and the multitude of aspects going into every square inch of surface (hidden and not) in a sound room is making me going nuts. Of course I am forced to go DIY since no savings left, and wife seriously pondering at taking an upper hand with my hobby and the door swung wide open. I guess this is just a collateral damage many of us are faced on regular basis. It is sort of like trying to keep the flame at the end of a candle stick going strong in the winter storm.

Since I am already at it while posting my only second time, may I please ask a question I was pondering at fore some time now and never had time to ask.

Will I have any need to use in my sound room / audio system / a PS Audio P20 Power Plant upon installing Equi=Tech 5WQ Balanced Power wall cabinet system? The Panel is coming in next week while the P20 is sitting in its own box since more than a year and a half, and I have not yet asked Paul about it. I have asked our friend @ mikelavigne who without knowing it got me going with Equi=Tech solutions through his two decades old Power thread, but for some reason I cannot get him to respond to my question.

Highly appreciate all of your members input.

Thanks, Chris.

 

@chriszponder 

What horns did you buy and why do you consider them a mistake?

JH

A factor in my audio journey is system synergy. At one point I had an Arcam amp paired with Paradigm speakers. It worked because the Arcam had a laid back presentation with the forward sounding Paradigms. They complemented each other. When I upgraded the speakers to some more refined Revels, no more synergy. Both components had a more laid back sound and the amp wasn't powerful enough for the inefficient speakers. So I eventually upgraded the amp to a Cambridge Audio with more power and a less laid back sound. Back to synergy. I will admit that all of this is very subjective and will be impacted by personal preference and all of the myriad of audio factors like room dynamics, source equipment, cables and in my case budget.

Great write up! Very insightful and for what you’ve learned “constructively” in 3 short years is inspiring. I’ve been doing this almost 50 years and I feel in still “winging it” most of the time. Thanks. 

1+@1971gto455ho @johnah5 @tannoy56 

I also joined the journey back into the hobby just about the same time shortly before Covid-19. I remember then encountering a fascinating story of willgolf's journeying all over the country in pursuit of his horn speakers.

His story became so intriguing to me that in a short time I decided to throw the cards away, and treat the purchase of my first $10 K pair of speakers just a few weeks earlier to be a sort of a mistaken transaction. No, not to get rid of them right away, but instead to keep them

@jeffseight 

Totally agree about the room. One of the biggest challenges and constraints in my case. My listening room is my family room and my wife isn’t about to let me throw up a bunch of panels everywhere!! She also doesn’t have any interest in my gear however she does understand it’s something I’m passionate about. Funny enough, a buddy and I were having a discussion reflecting on if we knew what we knew now we would actually start with power and room acoustics before buying even one piece of gear. We laughed because no one starting in this hobby would ever take that advice!!! I would have said you’re crazy !! But I believe it now. Since I can’t really alter my room I needed to work around it. I did sneak one absorbing panel on the back wall because my couch/head is right up against it and it absorbs a lot of bass build up. The challenge was getting it to be wife friendly. Wish it was easier to post something on this forum. Second major challenge  was speaker distance off the walls. Wife put a 15” max limit lol. So with these constraints it’s no easy task to find a combination that works. I 100% know that a different room with the same gear would yield even better results.

@

emrofsemanon Dedicated audiophiles can easily become millionaires if only they were billionaires prior to the hobby.

figured out how to easily become a millionaire first, in order that i could afford all that is required to join the hobby. all the reviewers on stereophile seem to live in quasi-mansions with 12 foot ceilings and 40 foot wide listening rooms, and distant neighbors. 

@limbonner You’re probably aware that some precious metals like gold and silver have the propensity of purifying water - fact. In a similar way, the audio cables/interconnects effectively clean the electrical power coming to your house. All of these devices/cables are notting more than filters. In addition, the electromagnetic orientation of the cables can facilitate the process of purifying just like catalysis do. I know, there is plenty of reasons to be skeptical but this is all I’ve got for you.

I would add -

-find a veteran mentor and listen carefully to what they say

-be patient or you will waste money

-Fix the room before you spend too much $ on gear

-Buy nothing without a trial period

If you follow all those guides you will not make any large misteps

 

 

First off are Audiophiles ever happy with their components?  We are all chasing a dream, but we don't know what that is.  My journey has taken me from a $5k system to one that would be considered to be high-end.....it does not matter the price.  I have learned so much over the last 5 years and have made many mistakes.  It is all part of the process.  

Clean power and room acoustics are super important.  If you get that right everything else is easy.  If your system budget is under $50k, buy the best-used equipment you can find.   Take your time.  Go to audio shows.  

I am not a fan of a lot of dealers because they just try to jam what they have down your throat.  I buy equipment from all over the world and have not purchased one item from my local dealer.  That is sad but a fact of life.  I go where I can get the best deal for what I am looking for.  

Not counting clean power and room acoustics here is my % breakdown.  I am 100% digital so this is a major factor in my setup.  

Amplifier 20%, DAC/Music Server 45%, Speakers - 20%, Cabling / Power Cords 15%

These percentages have nothing to do with the cost I paid, but it has everything to do with the actual relevance of SQ.  They are all synergistic.  

My advice if I were starting over is to buy brands that you can turn around and sell.  I have had many great components that were not well known.  It can be tough to sell them even though they are great.  It is now why I own Aries Cerat and Lampizator.  

Lastly, as you progress up the high end chart, the wife factor does come into play...LOL.   I mentioned a preamp that cost $72k and my wife went apes**t.  It is a journey.  It is not how fast you get there.  Enjoy the ride and the music.

 

 

 

So can someone explain how you can take "dirty power" coming from your utility, that travels over non-audiophile cables all the way from the generation location, then down non-audiophile lines into your service panel ( I've yet to hear of an audiophile service panel with solid gold or silver or cryogenically treated copper buss bars, perhaps a new endeavor for someone) and then run that power through a standard breaker (again haven't heard of audiophile breakers yet) run it through some oversized Romex from the famous audiophile store Home Depot and supply said power to a hospital grade receptacle from the same audiophile store, and have that clean up the "dirty power".

@tannoy56

l do realize the value if quality, vintage or otherwise. As I’ve said many times clean power, a well appointed room and selectively purchased high end will put a smile on most. Enjoy what you’ve got.

Cheers

3 yrs. That's funny. But after 40 yrs I still build my systems around speakers, so I believe you have an ear. Tough crowd this...

@liamowen Don't knock it unless you tried it. Clean power is real thing and does provide audible improvements across all levels of components.

What might be considered crazy though is the cost of obtaining clean power. The conditioners, the cables, the linear power supplies, grounding boxes, etc. Its just a rabbit hole once you go down that path.

 

@1971gto455ho If you really spent years in and out of studios, you should at least have learned that the most desirable studio equipment such as: microphones, speakers, reel to reels and others are vintage. No one cares for the new studio crap made for convenience and not for sound quality. As far as the effort is concerned - if you love what you do is not work but pleasure and good old fashion  learning experience for which there is no substitute. 

An interesting observation I've made is that the older audiophiles tend to focus on things lower in the chain, like speakers and amps.

The digital generation values and focuses on cleaning up the source and thinks that makes more of a difference in their setup.

At this point in my journey, I tend to side with the latter approach.

I Feel sorry for the effort some have to put into any hobby only to end up questioning their sanity. Is it that they’ve had to buy a whole pile of junk only to realize it takes more than that, life is too short to spend a chunk of it on the likes of  eBay. Nobody should have to buy hundreds of anything in order to arrive at exceptional sound. I spent years in and out of studios and sound rooms before spending cent one. Research, patients, then I built a room around the system, I’m happy. 
 

Cheers 

but...the most important thing is

the journey!  I have had so much fun thinking, reading reviews, asking questions and listening.  I have been through quite a bit of equipment in the past 3 years as OP but it was just a blast to think and add things, remove things, learn.  

This solution isn't as much fun as the journey. Once we have the "perfect" system for oneself then what?  Watches?  Sports?

Love this stuff

jh

There needs to be a face palm emoji. 🙄  

It's an awful hobby, it's costly, lonely and addictive. Number one rule, listen to as much equipment as you can and never commit to anything until you have heard it, preferably at home. Never buy anything at RRP, it's all overpriced. The only thing in my system with 80% of RRP is the Denafrips DAC. Most everything else were 40% or so discount, including cables, power accessories, tube amp, network player and speakers. A play is nothing like a movie and record is nothing like a concert, in the words of a hifi reviewer, and I don't really like any of them, however this is a truism decide which sort of fake you like. Price has very little to do with sound quality, in the same store I listened to a $20,000 tube amp and a $6000 tube, no one could pick a difference. I've listened to $20,000 speakers that can make your ears bleed and your face grimace, $1500 ones that made my spine tingle. However if in the end this hobby becomes all about the equipment, sell it all and buy an iPod, you'll probably enjoy the music just as much. 

Great post and we have all been down this road. 
 

Some have been on it longer than others. 

@dman1974 

You mad bro?

You lost me on that "clean power" nonsense. Is your clean power solar, wind or water?

Also, you didn't state your budget in your OP, nor did you state you bought used gear.  And, I didn't talk about "months" to determine gear synergy.  

Maybe you read what you wrote, and what I wrote.

Either way, please let your wife know how sorry I am.

Room treatment? 

If we are talking about the Stereo, this thread may be spot on. If we are talking about musical fidelity, no one has mentioned the source of the music, the master specs. Lossless recordings, UHD recordings, matter to the actual fidelity.

Nada Bramha.

@liamowen 

if you read the entire thread you would have seen that I haven’t bought one single new piece of gear. I had a budget of 15 k and I always stayed within that budget. If I wanted another piece that was outside of the budget I had to sell multiple pieces and balance the overall cost. That’s essentially how I ended up trying so many different pieces of gear. I only lost money 2 times and those were unique pieces which I knew would be a hard sell. Mostly I made money buying and selling. I did a lot of research on what was in demand and what the market prices were. I also bought below what I thought was market value. I don’t recommend everyone takes this path, it’s a difficult one for sure. Dealers hated me because I never bought new and tried picking their brains for knowledge. Trust me, no dealers like me. I do have a wife and I also maintain my budget. Lately that budget increased to 18 K but that’s not a significant increase. I now know what I like and what works. And to your point about needing months to determine if a piece is good?? I totally disagree with that statement. It literally takes a week if not hours for me to determine good or bad. I guess when you’ve heard a lot of gear you just instantly have an impression. I either am interested and want to hear more or I know it’s not for me, almost instantly.

Rule#1:  Stay away from dealers - dealers want your money and they't your friends.  In addition, even if you buy from a reputable dealer, you will loose half of the value of your purchase in the blink of the eye. 

Rule#2: Buy only the best used equipment you can afford and don't overpay - think of reselling value, because this hobby of ours never ends. 

Rule#3: Learning takes time, a lot of time. Your brain needs time to properly evaluate the music you hear.  A few hours of A/B evaluation and limited listening sessions here and there will not work for proper musical evaluation but only for individual notes and limited sound passages. 

The bottom line is that, most of the new equipment today will be forgotten within a few years and only a few will become timeless and legendary.

If you follow these basic rules you'll be well rewarded in a long time and not financially ruined.  

The rest of the rules from #4 to infinity are pretty standard and easy to follow. 

 

@bigtwin 

 

i had H360 and H390. Both were OK. At the time I didn’t have the speakers I have now, along with all the other upgrades. Maybe now I’d be open to try Hegel again. I don’t like that the streamer DAC is all in one box. I sold my Simaudio 340 I X that had the built in DAC and went for the pure analog version which cut down on noise with a blacker background.

"I’ve considered myself an audiophile for over 3 years now. In those 3 years I’ve owned over 12 pairs of speakers, 10 amplifiers, 4 pre amplifiers, 7 DACs all in search for the perfect sound.'

Seriously, dude, you must have more money than brains and ants in your pants.  You obviously don't have a wife to slow you down, either.  Having that many pieces of gear, mingled together at different times likely means you can't even remember what different sound combinations sound like.  If this takes you where you want to go, keep up the good work.  The industry needs these buyers.

 

IMO, the main problem the OP had in his journey is changing that many pieces of equipment in such a short period of time. It made it nearly impossible for him to learn what piece of equipment did what. The way he did it had to lead to total confusion. Buying one piece at a time and giving it at least a few weeks to figure it out before moving on to a different part of the system is the best way to go. You will then learn the true sonic value of each piece in your system, whether good or bad, and save a lot of money in the process. I know, because I have been guilty of buying multiple pieces too quickly myself and eventually I got to the point where I had difficulties knowing what did what. Patience is the biggest asset in this endeavor, and money :)

@grislybutter  My wife might say you're still not wrong in your original statement.  🤣

@bigtwin Yes I looked at ALL the pictures. Now I understand.

@dman1974  I'm also a big fan of buying used.  If I can enjoy a high end piece of equipment for a year and move it on to a new home for close to what I paid, I'm very happy.  The key has always buying at the right price.  If you ever get a chance to buy a Hegel H590 at a good price, I think you will really like it.  Although it's a SS amp, it's almost tube like in it's sound.  300 watts per side will drive anything and the DAC is world class.  One of the favorite amps I've ever owned.  Enjoy your journey.  

@grislybutter I'm guessing you looked at by profile.  Note the pics denote a progression.  I had  Ver 1.0 for 20 years.  Each new version had equipment replaced. Still completing the final rig.  (Ver 4.0)   Have to admit the Bose IPod docking sation is Sweeeeeet, but lacks the detail of both the Acoustic Zen and the Focals.  

@bigtwin

Thats one of the benefits of buying used. Also, you can break in by running 24/7. It’s not likely anything requires more than 2-300 hours. I did get a pair of new Dynaudio that I ran for a week in my basement with moving blankets over them. One speaker had polarity backwards. I cannot believe anyone needs more than a month to evaluate something. You either like it or you don’t. I struggled with bright gear. I could hear it in 30 seconds. Like a drill going into my ear. That got sold almost instantly. In the end I’m almost 90% sure it had to do with the  power that was coming out of wall. I also avoided silver because I thought it was bright. Now I’m almost all silver with zero brightness. Clean yes, very clean and neutral but non fatiguing and a touch of warmth. Incredible black background which I never understood until I actually heard it.