What Makes a Good RIAA or Line Stage?


Hi Doug,

In a currently running thread on a certain RIAA / Line stage beginning with the letter "E", some very provocative comments were made that are of a general nature.

I fear that this conversation will be lost on the many individuals who have soured on the direction which that particular thread has taken. For the purpose of future searches of this archive, those interested in the "E" thread can click this link.

For the rest of us who are interested in some of the meta concepts involved in RIAA and Line Level circuits, I've kicked this thread off - rather than to hijack that other one. In that thread, you (Doug) mused about the differences between your Alap and Dan's Rhea/Calypso:

... the Alaap has the best power supplies I've heard in any tube preamp. This is (in my admittedly unqualified opinion) a major reason why it outplayed Dan's Rhea/Calypso, which sounded starved at dynamic peaks by comparison.

Knowing only a bit more than you, Doug, I too would bet the farm on Nick's p-s design being "better", but know here that "better" is a very open ended term. I'd love to hear Nick's comments (or Jim Hagerman's - who surfs this forum) on this topic, so I'll instigate a bit with some thoughts of my own. Perhaps we can gain some insight.

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Power supplies are a lot like automobile engines - you have two basic categories:

1. The low revving, high torque variety, characteristic of the American muscle car and espoused by many s-s designers in the world of audio.

2. The high revving, low torque variety characteristic of double overhead cam, 4 valves per cylinder - typically espoused by the single-ended / horn crowd.

Now, just as in autos, each architecture has its own particular advantage, and we truly have a continuum from one extreme to the other..

Large, high-capacitance supplies (category 1) tend to go on forever, but when they run out of gas, it's a sorry sight. Smaller capacitance supplies (category 2) recharge more quickly - being more responsive to musical transients, but will run out of steam during extended, peak demands.

In my humble opinion, your Alap convinced Dan to get out his checkbook in part because of the balance that Nick struck between these two competing goals (an elegant balance), but also because of a design philosophy that actually took music into account.

Too many engineers lose sight of music.

Take this as one man's opinion and nothing more, but when I opened the lid on the dual mono p-s chassis of my friend's Aesthetix Io, my eyes popped out. I could scarcely believe the site of all of those 12AX7 tubes serving as voltage regulators - each one of them having their own 3-pin regulators (e.g. LM317, etc.) to run their filaments.

Please understand that my mention of the Aesthetix is anecdotal, as there are quite a few designs highly regarded designs which embody this approach. It's not my intent to single them out, but is rather a data point in the matrix of my experience.

I was fairly much an electronics design newbie at the time, and I was still piecing my reality together - specifically that design challenges become exponentially more difficult when you introduce too many variables (parts). Another thing I was in the process of learning is that you can over-filter a power supply.

Too much "muscle" in a power supply (as with people), means too little grace, speed, and flexibility.

If I had the skill that Jim Hagerman, Nick Doshi, or John Atwood have, then my design goal would be the athletic equivalent of a Bruce Lee - nimble, lightning quick and unfazed by any musical passage you could throw at it.

In contrast, many of the designs from the big boys remind me of offensive linemen in the National Football League. They do fine with heavy loads, and that's about it.

One has to wonder why someone would complicate matters to such an extent. Surely, they consider the results to be worth it, and many people whom I like and respect consider the results of designs espousing this philosophy of complexity to be an effort that achieves musical goals.

I would be the last person to dictate tastes in hi-fi - other than ask them to focus on the following two considerations:

1. Does this component give me insight into the musical intent of the performer? Does it help me make more "sense" out of things?

2. Will this component help me to enjoy EVERY SINGLE ONE of my recordings, and not just my audiophile recordings?

All other considerations are about sound effects and not music.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
128x128thom_at_galibier_design
Hi Doug, Thanks for the response. I am looking forward to seeing pictures. It is important to understand ones sonic priorities as perhaps no ones are the same? Even though there are certain "threads" that hold them all together. By the way one does not "drive" a motorcycle, you ride them. The difference is that motorcycles have saddles, not seats. Well unless it is a Harley, in which case "driving" may be the correct word.

Bob
I have been smitten by Tom Evan's work for several years. His products, for me, epitomize the idea of simplicity. Many celebrate his decades work on the importance of a well-designed power supply. His black boxes are almost too humble looking to be respected in this hobby. The resulting atmosphere you find yourself in is nothing short of breathtaking. He answers both of your questions with a resounding yes. I am of course a total Evans junkie.
Hello,
my .02
1- there are no perfect supplies or audio amplifying circuits
2- Simpler is usually better
3- As far as possible, design the supply so that it really does not even care that there is a amplifier circuit attached to it, make its output impedance close to even across the frequency spectrum (as far as possible)
4- Design the circuit so that the change in current drawn from the supply is small so you reduce supply modulation
5- In the circuit design, pay close attention to the signal and supply ground for each stage, the loading of the preceding stage into the next and try to run devices conservatively enough for long life.

There is a large tendency to mythologise the whole aspect of audio design and it needs to be brought down to earth a little. It serves our egos well and may help sell a couple of preamps but lets get real, none of us was nominated for the peace prize because of our phono stage.

Thom has it totally right, does the thing get out of the way so you can understand what the composer/artist/singer was trying to do. The rest is BS. There is no supreme topology.
Even the person who brought up Tom Evans should realize that Tom started Acoustic Precison on the basis of audio circuits supplied by very high speed regulators and has now come full circle by using triple choke regulation in his latest amps.

I try my hardest to not post to the forums anymore because it always seems that someone either is spoiling for a flame war or has a dogmatic view that they wish to evangelize.
I think Thom is making an attempt to change the tone a little and I thank him.

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Thom, Great thread.
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Doug, Nice acceptance speech.
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Nick, Thoughful and appreciated post...I hope it resonates with a few people.
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Rgds,
Larry
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Thanks to you designers for posting your thoughts. Good one, Thom!

In my mind the next logical question would concern the RIAA curve itself. I'm sure we'd all agree that following the curve as close as possible is a good thing, but just how close does the implementation (not the design) have to be before the listener begins to have doubts about what he or she is hearing?