Howard, I think I'm trying to say that we are up against an intractible enemy and also remind what Churchill said decades ago. Anyone who is not a liberal when young doesn't have a heart. But anyone who has not become conservative once fully grown up doesn't have a brain. It's taken me a long time to realize that we are not the problem - we are the solution. The world needs more Thomas Jeffersons, not Michael Moores or Noam Chomskys.
All the silly songs from this past year (Green Day, Steve Earle, etc.) don't make a valid point about anything and offer no solutions or insight whatsoever. Just the same old stale thought package that they think makes themselves sound cool. And that's the real shame - we've devolved to a point where being "cool" is the main desire and drive of our culture.
Colitas, Martin Luther King Jr. was a very good man who moved civil right farther than along than imagined, and Vietnam was a war we lost because we didn't want to overstep our bounds and engage with the Soviet Union. What either of those statements has to do with anything today is lost on me. The world has changed in the last 35 years.
While I agree that the opposition (i.e. the Democrats) to the current regime is sadly devoid both of ideas/solutions and courage, I must strongly disagree that protest songs--from last year or any other--"do not make a valid point about anything." Of course, I do not generally look to pop songs for actual solutions to complex political problems, but when the President of the United States has basically made a mockery of the Constitution he has sworn to defend (using the NSA to spy on American citizens is merely the latest outrage, but far from the only one), I believe anger is the appropriate and "valid" response and does, in fact, make a point. As for Churchill's old bromide, what could be more "conservative" than preserving and honoring the Constitution?
As for the "intractable enemy," do you mean the terrorists or Iraq? Do you know of a link between the 9-11 attack and Iraq that no one else has found? If so, please contact the White House at once. They've been searching frantically for quite some time now, so far to no avail.
Tomryan, you said, and I quote "we are the solution" What kind of nonsense is that?? Sounds a lot like the Nazis during World War II. Maybe you should change your moniker from Tomryan to Aryan.
I read about two guys who were locked up partially based on warrantless evesdropping (which as yet we don't know whether legal or not but then these are times the likes of which we've not seen before). Both are Muslims from the Mideast, one who is cooling his heels in prison because of confessing to a plot to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge during rush hour. The other also in an 8x8 having been convicted of supporting, working with, and financing terrorists groups in the Mideast. I hate to sound jaded but I'm glad someone was following these dopes.
By the way, Bill Clinton's administration (who never addressed the worldwide Islamic terrorist threat, but then neither did the Republican congress. I'm pretty sure Bush never mentioned it during any speeches in 2000.) also "illegally" wiretapped and broke into an American's house. This guy is in prison now convicted of spying for Israel.
I think the Bush admin. had this plan (not very well executed): Take Afganistan and turn it into a civilized state. Next take Iraq and do the same thing. Now we've got the big prize, Iran, in a squeeze hold and hopefully the people of Iran would rebel and throw out the savagely dangerous terrorist regime. Then decency and goodness would spread throughout the rest of the Muslim world!! Yay!!!
By the way, Saddam paid for dozens of terrorists attacks against Israel and allowed terrorists safe haven and training in his country. I also think Iraq was the weakest of the countries that needed "adjustment". And if Iraq was not part of the worldwide terrorist network, why do the terrorists think it's so important to keep it that way?
No question, Clinton had little more regard for the Constitution than Bush. Although I too may be jaded, I am not quite prepared to sacrifice the Fourth Amendment based on your anecdote, or Bush's judgment of who should be detained, who should be spied on. There are legal means to spy, if that is needed. As for the Master Plan to set countries in the Middle East on the right path, please explain to me exactly how that would work, how it conforms to conservative values, how it is not imperialist? We may not see eye to eye, but I respect your point of view.
Robm321,
"Cry Me a River"? Nah, it seems that under the circumstances, the Police song "Every Breath You Take" ("I'll be watching you") is more appropriate. But your suggestion is very, very clever, make no mistake about it.
Dreadhead, Contextual thinking is not your forte, eh? We were the solution to Nazism, Japanese Imperialism, and Communisim (90 million dead! Get on board!!). Germmany and Japan were both victims of American "imperialism" and thank God, at least from their own points of view. This was Franklin Roosevelt's philosophy - change the damn regimes once and for all.
It's not working real well in Iraq for two reasons: 1) They've never had anything like a constitutionally limited Republic based on Jeffersonian principles and cannot yet comprehend the logic and benefits. 2) We did not inflict enough military punishment to convince the enemy of the futility of resistance. Remember that the Nazis mounted an insurgance after their formal surrender. We smashed it with such certitude that they gave up.
How long are we going to have a military presence in Iraq? Just remember that we've had troops on the ground in Germany and Japan for more than 60 years. By the way, things are going pretty well in both those countries, thanks to our imperialism. Even though our government and Germany's have many differences, there is absolutely no consideration of war or any military action considered btw the two. Germans are not coming to the USA to mass murder our citizens and no Americans are doing that to them. Why?
Imagine Iraq, Afganistan, and finally Iran becoming like Germany and Japan. "What a wonderful world" indeed!
Walter, I also respect your point of view. By the way, I'm not a conservative. I believe people have the right to live for their own sakes and should not be coerced into servitude. However, this applies only to citizens of the USA because of the natural structure of reality. We simply cannot apply the same principles to others in the world, and this is why we have police work against our own citizens and war against other countries.
Thank you for expressing, so clearly, the facts of history to our more "emotional" members. Have you ever considered running for the Senate? How about - TOMRYAN for President! :-) As you so clearly understand, rational, clear thinking debate, is a good thing. But, when the survival of our countrymen and culture is at stake, cloudy, emotional, ranting has no place in the debate. Congratulations on being such an eloquent spokesman - I only wish I had your gift.
Paul, Thanks for the support but you, too, have stated quite succinctly (Jeez, my spelling is bad!) where we are. I also think most of these responses are based on an emotional state caused by a thought package into which one is heavily invested.
I want to do everything possible to avoid being incinerated in a fireball (or beheaded or shot between the eyes) so I am willing to give the current administration some wiggle room when dealing with suspected Muslim terrorists in this country who are contacting other thugs who are in the Mideast. Remember what Osama said:
"We will not rest until we kill 4 million Americans on American soil, and half of those must be children." Only way to do that is with nuclear weapons. Anyone else thinking something immediately has be done about Iran?
And, Jeez Louise, is anyone still upset that some Army soldiers made terror suspect prisoners wear panties on their heads? You can watch any Madonna video and see worse than that! Or, pick any one of a dozen MTV shows like Jackass, Bad Boys, and that one where the adults kids assault their parents while we are supposed to be laughing. Raise a generation on this crap and how do you expect them to act in a degraded situation like an Iraqi prison? I remember in the days after 09-11-01 that people such as Thomas Friedman, Jeff Greenfield, and even Al Franken all advocated some form of torture of terror suspects. Even some Democrat congressmen (whose names I can't remember now) preached the same thing. We wisely realized in those brightly lit days that things had changed. We were now fighting for our very existance.
Uppermidfi, The vagabond was you, and the person you are now took over the pants of the person you used to be before you became the person you are now. ;)
I do indeed clearly remember those very words which you quoted from Osama. If one actually tries to visualize that senario, which Osama graciously laid out for us - I think smiles would disappear from everyone's face.
It is sad, that in 4 short years, we have forgotten the way it felt during the brightly lit days following 9/11/01. It would be wise for every American to understand we are facing a far more dangerous enemy than we've EVER faced before. The Nazis and Japanese of WWII were noble in comparison to the enemy we face now. At least the enemies of WWII fought as soldiers, who understood the rules of war - not terrorists, who know, no boundaries.
Hopefully we will all become guardians of our land, and keep a vigilant eye out for anything that appears out of the ordinary. Sadly, we can never really rest as easily as we once did. We are certainly living in un-certain times. As you said Tom - "we are the solution". We all need to realize that, and accept it. As the saying goes...it's lonely at the top.
Thanks again Tom.
paul
Be well fellow Agoners - shoulder to shoulder. btw - Lee Greenwood's - "Proud to be an American" :-)
It is quite clear that the facts of history are missed on some of us more than others. How many Nations have adopted democratic systems because of our intervention? Does anybody know? I do know that the number of oppressive regimes we have supported outweighs it by a landslide. SO to use WWII as your straw man and say that we are the answer is quite naive. Sure I don't like terrorism, but where do we attack? At the root of the problem or the branch? Surely Iraq is not the root, I mean even Osama wouldn't work with Saddam(He didn't find his country a good example of an Islamic state).
Surely Tomryan you have heard of PNAC, haven't you? The plan is to invade Iran, or at least that was the goal. Afganistan was on the books before 9/11. Then Iraq, b/c as you put it "the weakest". Surely it was b/c of the bombing from the Clinton era, which nocked out most of the infra-strcture that we are now trying to rebuild. So, I don't see Iran happening any time soon. I do agree with you that the Iraqi people are finding it hard to adjust to a democratic system though. To quote an old Marine I still think "War is a Racket"
A Republican in a wheelchair entered a restaurant one afternoon and asked the waitress for a cup of coffee. The Republican looked across the restaurant and asked, "Is that Jesus sitting over there?" The waitress nodded "yes," so the Republican requested that she give Jesus a cup of coffee, on him.
The next patron to come in was a Libertarian with a hunched back. He shuffled over to a booth, painfully sat down, and asked the waitress for a cup of hot tea. He also glanced across the restaurant and asked, "Is that Jesus over there?" The waitress nodded, so the Libertarian asked her to give Jesus a cup of hot tea, "My treat."
The third patron to come into the restaurant was a Democrat on crutches. He hobbled over to a booth, sat down and hollered, "Hey there, honey! How's about gettin' me a cold glass of Miller Light?" He, too, looked across the restaurant and asked, "Is that God's boy over there?" The waitress once more nodded, so the Democrat directed her to give Jesus a cold glass of beer. "On my bill," he said.
As Jesus got up to leave, he passed by the Republican, touched him and said, "For your kindness, you are healed."
The Republican felt the strength come back into his legs, got up, and danced a jig out the door.
Jesus also passed by the Libertarian, touched him and said, "For your kindness, you are healed." The Libertarian felt his back straightening up, and he raised his hands, praised the Lord and did a series of back flips out the door.
Then Jesus walked towards the Democrat. The Democrat jumped up and yelled, "Don't touch me... I'm collecting disability."
Tom, we are in complete agreement there. No, not as the slave owner, but rather as the man who is willing to live by these words, the balance of which should inform any inquisitive American that his present government would make Thomas Jefferson sick.
The Nazis and Japanese of WWII were noble in comparison to the enemy we face now. At least the enemies of WWII fought as soldiers, who understood the rules of war - not terrorists, who know, no boundaries.
The Nazis were noble? Sure Paul, try and sell that line to a Jew. You can start with me. Please tell me you wrote that while having an aneurysm.
This was not calling Nazis noble. This is saying the people we are facing are worse than the Nazis, as hard as it is to imagine. Remember it was Muslim mullas who asked the Nazis to work harder to exterminate the Jews. That was 65 years ago. Also don't forget that 1-2 years ago a Saudi prince was visiting a Czech. Rebulic holocaust memorial and signed the guest book as follows (I'm paraphrasing as I heard the quote on TV and the radio maybe 3-4 times back then):
"Mr Hitler was a good man and did good things but he and the Germans failed in efficiency to complete their work. This is their failure and it is sad they were not more competent."
Let's see...we (including Jimmy Carter) helped keep a dictator in power in Iran 30 years ago. He was overthrown and now Iran is, and has been, much worse with far more repression and brutality. Actually, I was only talking about world domination attempts which we have stopped and replaced with decent forms of governments. We have, to our shame, been involved in supporting repressive regimes in order to gain material benefit, and this in various places throughout the world. Please, however, understand the different world we now admit living in and come out of the outdated, "old world" think-space of the 60s and 70s. If it'll make us all feel better we can stick out our right hand, smack it with the left, and say out loud, "Bad American! Bad American!"
By the way, I don't see us doing anything about Iran now either. Not after how much the admin. botched the Iraq thing. And all the hanky panky you talked about sure has made it hard to fight a good and well needed war.
Also by the way, anyone else hear that good 'ol infidel hating Osama is asking for a truce? I didn't get the whole story, may be someone else did.
The last time I heard your joke about Jesus,disability, etc.,,it was told by a certain Senator from Arizona while reflecting on the recent pork barrel (corporate and farm welfare) bills passed last year by the (Republican) congress.
Oh, on the latest public rip-offs going on in Washington, for a song, how about the old standard,
The last time I heard your joke about Jesus,disability, etc.,,it was told by a certain Senator from Arizona while reflecting on the recent pork barrel (corporate and farm welfare) bills passed last year by the (Republican) congress.
Oh, on the latest public rip-offs going on in Washington, for a song, how about the old standard,
"Tip-toe, through the tulips..."
Unclejeff-
Don't try and out-pork us Hawaiians, we have the the princes of pork, the one armed bandit, Uncle Dan I. and Uncle Brada Dan A. These old buggers just keep sucking it up....LOL
The Nazis were invading and overthrowing Europe. They killed and tortured millions of people. They performed experiemental operations on thousands of their victums, used the skin of jewish babies to make lampshades, and gassed innocent people, etc. etc. etc. How could anyone use the word noble in relation to the Nazis???
The Iraqis haven't done anything to us. Yes, Saddam did some saber rattling at the US. But we invaded their country, overthrew their government, occupy their country, and have killed thousands of innocent Iraqis, all under false WMD assumptions. We even used White Phosphourus as a chemical weapon in Fallujah, which not only hit the insurgents, but also many civilians. Can you imagine the outcry if the insurgents used White Phosphourus on our troops?
When Jessica Lynch was captured by the insurgents, Bush demanded that they adhere to the Geneva Convention in the treatment of prisoners of war. Yet, he thinks he is above the rules of war in the treatment of prisoners.
God bless our troops, and God help our government!
If only it was that simple Rosstaman. World politics is much more complex than your binary thinking.
I'm sure when he leaves office in a few years the world will magically become a better place.
Oh by the way Congress, both Clinton's, most of America, and other countries also felt we needed to go into Iraq.
If Iraq isn't important than why does Bin Laden want us out so bad?
Just a few questions that I hope makes it past the A'gon staff. They've blocked 2 of my posts and counting - I guess they only let posts they agree with through.
Here is a partial list of people who also thought and insisted publicly that Saddam had WMDs and also engaged in or recommended military action:
Bill Clinton Hillary Clinton Al Gore Madelyn Albright John Kerry
Again, if Iraq is not a part of the terrorist network, why are they fighting so hard to take control of it? And nobody on this thread said the Nazis were noble. Come on, people, these things can't be that complex that even slightly subtle and contexual discussions confuse you?
Oh yeah, good old Fallujah. We sat on our asses for 6 months while the enemy took over the city, fortified, armed, resupplied with weapons and even fake uniforms, before we did anything. And we didn't do anything until giving the civilians 4 weeks to leave. The Taliban had taken over and were turning it into little Afganistan. And when we did go in we fought so softly that if we'd done it that way in WWII we'd still be fighting in North Africa.
And Rosstaman? Jessica Lynch was raped & assulted and on crutches 2 months after resuce. There, that make ya feel better?
"Oh by the way Congress, both Clinton's, most of America, and other countries also felt we needed to go into Iraq."
"If Iraq isn't important than why does Bin Laden want us out so bad? "
The information was based on this administration's analysis of their intelligence community findings. That analysis was presented to Congress and the UN. The UN and most of the world wanted the sanctions and inspections to continue. The UN weapons inspectors did not concur with the Bush administration's analysis. AND let us not forget the Downing Street memo, and BushÂ’s former treasury secretary Paul OÂ’Neill who revealed that the President took office in January 2001 fully intending to invade Iraq and desperate to find an excuse for pre-emptive war against Saddam Hussein.
As far as Bin Laden, he should be found and be tried as the murderer he is, but not at the expense of US casualties and the Iraqi people who had nothing to do with Bin Laden or 9/11.
How about a variation of the Elton John song "Someone save my life tonight." Please save my life.
Well here we are 40 years to the day since John F Kennedy spoke the famous words "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
The question has long since been turned around to ask what Uncle Sam can do for me.
All the families of this country have suffered at the hand of the welfare mentality. The black family which was very strong and stable at the time is now in shambles with 70% of their children born out of wedlock. This is the result of the welfare state the democratic party has instituted. This is not at all to point a finger at black America. They are victims of horrible policy made by 'rich white folks!'
If the Democratic party would come back to where it was in 1964 then moderates would be able to support it, but the right has moved to the left and the left has fallen to the radicals. If you don't believe me, read the writings of JFK and listen to the speeches. He was more conservative than modern republicans.
Weapons of mass distruction have been found many times in Iraq, but even if the enriched uranium and 20,000 lbs of serin gas had not been found, Iraq broke the terms of the peace treaty they signed with Sr.
"And Rosstaman? Jessica Lynch was raped & assulted and on crutches 2 months after resuce. There, that make ya feel better?"
Cheap shot, tomryan. I'm not attacking anyone for their viewpoint. I'm simply expressing my opinion on the Iraq War. It's still the American way to be able to have a political debate without name calling or cheap innuendos.
For what it's worth, I was 100% in support of the US and coalition forces going into Iraq to liberate Kuwait from Saddam and his army. I was 100% in support of going into Afganistan to capture or kill Bin Laden and end the Al-Qaeda training camps and the Taliban who allowed and supported them to exist.
I don't look at politics like a super bowl game, where one supports their team no matter what.
Colitas writes: It is quite clear that the facts of history are missed on some of us more than others. How many Nations have adopted democratic systems because of our intervention? Does anybody know?
Well, I might know a few......France. Germany. Spain. Italy. Japan.
Well Danlib, I guess we did liberate them in WWII. AS far as oppressive regimes we have supported the time frame is longer than the 60's and 70's as Tomryan puts it. How about the CIA's coup of Arbenz in Guatemala in the 1950's. This ended Guatemala's youn Democracy and lead into more Military rulers. Chile in the 70's with the coup to get Pinochet in. The Contras' anybody remember the Iran Contra Affair. As far as Saddam in the 80's we gave him the gas to battle the Iranians but saw no problem with him attacking the Kurds' either. Let us not forget that we also gave him the green light to go into Kuwait in the first place. I don't think the slap on the hand would work, though:). As far as Afghanistan goes, I think we started too late to REALLY find Osama, and I am sure you will never see him at a trial either. Who cares why Osama thinks that Iraq is important, or why Iran's current leader is a nut. Neither one of them has weapons of mass destruction. So Tomryan do any of those people hold any weight in your mind they don't in mine. Ever heard of Scott Ritter, an actual UN inspector who was in Iraq before the invasion. Ritter was going around the US trying to educate the people to the fact that Iraq had no weapons. Why not focus on a country who does, and admits that they are pointed at us: CHINA ;)-~
Thanks Tomryan for giving us a logical and accurate point of view. I guess the admin. doesn't like my arguments, so they won't allow my posts (which are pretty close to your point of view). I guess the truth does hurt the liberal point of view, so I can see why they don't want to accept it.
Unless you're over there nobody really knows what the facts are. It's all a matter of choice and which newspaper or TV news coverage you subscribe to. I don't think any of them let us know what's truly going on, because they don't even know.
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." -Hermann Goering, NAZI Luftwaffa chief of staff, sentenced to death at Nuremburg warcrimes trials (committed suicide)
Also, "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this Land, it will be in the Guise of fighting a Foreign Enemy" James Madison
Man, these founding Father's of ours were smart as hell. It appears that everything we are warned about is coming to pass. Read the Thomas Jefferson quotes on this thread as well. It's happening right under your right-winged noses.
I think I'm trying to say that we are up against an intractible enemy and also remind what Churchill said decades ago. Anyone who is not a liberal when young doesn't have a heart. But anyone who has not become conservative once fully grown up doesn't have a brain.
"If you are not liberal by the time you are 20 you have no heart. If you are not conservative by the time you are 40 you have no brain."
This quote has been attributed to Churchill many times, but no one is certain and it is not found in any of his writings. Just thought you would like to know that for future reference.
If we all knew half as much as we think we do, we would all be twice as smart as we really are. Present company included. One thing I have learned---the longer I live the less I am sure about what I do know.
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