What the benifit of using a separate dac?

Jax2

WEll, forgive me here, but just where does one go to hear that modded Waddia beforehand?

I think my take here is pretty simple. Although it’s perhaps not an easy thing to audition any number of CDPs, the possibility exists. Also there are reviews of these non modded items, threads, etc.

The modded units however, by and large, have little or no press… no place to find one for audition, and certainly there’ll be no in home trial…. Hence a decision to mod a particular unit to claimed ‘higher levels of performance’ are at best dark or ambiguous assertions as to the end product.

I’m not taking modders or those who have modded their items to task… it’s just that it’s a shot in the dark at best. IMHO.

Without any concrete evidence, or even subjective press available as to the results going in it does seem a dicey prospect to me and only the rep of the modding tech is accountable here… not the ACTUAL outcome OF YOUR UNIT.

Will the device once altered then be too much detail, of too high resolution, or too dark, or too warm, or too lush? ...AND THERE'S THIS... OR TOO UN-RESALEABLE?

At best some of the more prominent assertions are “following this modification it will compete on a par with units costing several times more Well… OK, THEN, How SO?

…and then there’s this… Well, I liked it better the other way or Can you make it a bit less ….. or a bit more …. ?

In all having something modded just it simply seems a big question mark to me. That’s all. In spite of my thoughts here I am pretty sure I’ll go that way next year with my DAC…

But it is scary.

Maybe a good idea would be for modders to have on hand a XYZ with their level one, level two, etc, mods and allow seriously interested folks to actually see up front what they are buying, instead of the other way around. I mean if it's a slam dunk, no brainer mod providing performance and value, then why not? Like they could have one or two already done for previewing?

hell, I'd even pay a resonable fee for that were I not to wind up buying it or having my own done that way!

Just think of all the guess work and speculation that would be taken out of the mix, not to mention the positive press that would follow.

That is the way other designers do it is it not?

WEll, forgive me here, but just where does one go to hear that modded Waddia beforehand?

Hmmm, well, I guess you have a point, but some of the modders do show up at the bigger shows (RMAF, VSAC, CES), and you could hear their stuff there. Just like hearing anything in an environment and in a system that is not the one you bring it home to (just like listening to a stock piece at a dealer), I'd opine that it's all a risk if you ask me...you just have to take intelligent risks and see what works for you. You could also query here and see if anyone local to you owns one you could go listen to. I don't do the retail thing, and rarely buy anything at all at a retail shop. 90% of what I buy is on the used market and is in some ways a leap of faith, but usually I have either heard examples somewhere, or researched and paid attention to who's saying what about a particular piece or manufacturer I'm interested in. Ultimately you don't know anything about any piece in terms of how it will work in your system, in your room, with your music, and to your ears, unless you actually try it. If you want guarantees, I guess there are none. I've found myself to be pretty savvy to the used market and I think I have a pretty good sense of what I can buy and sell something for, and what holds its value and what does not. In this way I've tried out alot of different things over the years and have been able to hone in on which direction suits me and my tastes. Many components have come and gone in my system, but a few have stayed for the long run. I cannot recall ever having taken a beating over any of my buying and selling. I usually just break even and have the experience as value added. There are modders I've come to have experience with that I took a risk on and it paid off and I would go to them again and again. Top of that list would be Dan Wright over at Modwright. GNSC also was a worthwhile investment in my experience. I've heard APL's Denon mod (at the middle of what he offers) and let me tell you it is a damn fine digital front end. I guess Alex has gone AWOL though, which is unusual for him as I understand it, and that might be, I suppose, another risk of any smaller manufacturer. Look at how many small boutique manufacturers have come and gone...some have produce great products too, but that doesn not guarantee success. It's a tough business and those who survive are probably doing more than just one thing right. I can tell you this from my own personal experience, and YMMV, the best things that have come into my life, without any exceptions that I can think of, have come as the result of taking some significant risk. I guess it's not for everyone, but it's worked for me. I understand your hesitations, Jim. There is certainly the other side of the coin - there's some wisdom in playing it safe and being conservative. Do what suits you best.

I purchased a Sony ES player back in the 80's....done good player. But I got back into Hi End about a year ago. I felt that there had to be improvements made...so I wanted to keep my Sony 707 as a transport...A stand alone DAC was next on the list. Tubes or SS...well I read everything I could on the net...my Budget being about 1200....I chose a Monarchy dac....hooked it up....very good. I changed out the stock tubes for NOS Amperex...now that was a significant upgrade. The best was yet to come....swithed out the coupling caps....that did the trick. I'm done...as this dac now produces silky smooth,dynamic and crystal clear sound...all for 1500 not bad.

Jax2

I can and do appreciate your exp and no doubt the modding path has been a beneficial one for yourself and I’m glad for you.

You and I aren't too different… nor for that matter are most of those who frequent the high end audio market. Very little of the abundance of gear is available for local preview. some of which that is available, I’ll just not go thear due to the way that dealership treats people routinely… and I’ve tried more than a couple times to do business with them in spite of their erudite and arrogant attitudes.

90% + of my rig has been purchased sight unseen/unheard. Nearly all were leaps of faith. Yet nearly all of these leaps of faith were fortified with plenty of press and other current & previous owners recommendations. In spite of some actually.

I do my due dilligence… as it is to me to do… and that’s exactly my point as you agreed by saying some of the modders will ‘sometimes’ show off their mods at some of the shows. I’d guess these show pieces are their full on mods as well.

Exactly. Some, sometimes, somewhere. Maybe.

Specific alterations for improvement aren’t for the greater part responsibly accounted for too often. Nor are those accounts ongoing in the more common areas one would look to for such reports… only short raves are posted from those who have subscribed to and paid for them.

As such, these reporters have a vested interest and can’t be considered objective descriptions IMHO.

Well, not 100% anyways. Neither do I discount them wholely.

On the other side of that coin of vaunted increase, is the reliability and contact issue. I tried a couple years ago to contact some of these after market aficinadoes and from some was not even given so much as a simple reply email. Only Steve of Imperical, Mr. Jesse out of Michigan and Richard Kern have spoken to me on some CDP improvements. One was far beyond my ability and the others were left unrealized given the results of the conversations.

A couple others I got to that have a reputation for upgrading components struck me as quite biased and arrogant outright talking down dissmissively of various manufacturers designs relative to their own efforts. Consequently I gave them no further thought.

People are people I suppose and I guess one can’t expect everyone to be polite and objective. I believe one can expect contact and communication to be part and parcel aspects of doing business with them however… and in my exp, this last facet has shown itself to be less than satisfactory. I’ll also add I’ve had even less satisfaction with standard ongoing prominent makers of high end gear too. Quite possibly this vein is simply put, what one has to deal with in upscale audio concerns… and that is indeed a shame.

Nevertheless, I understand the constraints of gear makers which follow a more wide spread concern dissallowing a no holds barred effort… and the after market adjusters which affford the end user an opportunity for greater gain.

Fine. Good.

I would merely prefer to see more objective accounts, such as those written on R. Kerns and D Wrights and others’ efforts. There are quite a few online outlets for such info too for this to not be done.

I see no reason to keep any viable measured performance enhancements as more the ‘well kept secrets’ variety, rather than the openly reported.

Hope you can see the sense in my opinion here… hopefully more modders do too. I’d dearly love to hear objective accounts from any of these hot rodders less than full on mod results in the same online publications we all enjoy and use routinely for help in making our buying decisions. Of course there are those rags which will not publish such matters yet there are those which would.

Naturally as I mentioned also having units on hand which possess such alterations for home trials would surely gain for them far greater appeal.

Shedding such a brighter light on things would benefit both modder and moddee.

I mean given the choice in our leaps of faith, would not all of us prefer to just jump a school bus or two, rather than the Grand Canyon?

We ain’t all Evil Knevils, ya know.

…and isn’t “BETTER” a pretty vague word after all.

Blindjim,

Interesting thoughts. Perhaps modding is partly based on a desire to differentiate - to have something better than or at least different from the next guy. To enhance the feeling of ownership pride by an extra level of customization. Audible benefits may be quite small but kudos is high in the mind of the owner. This is where the value comes - like the guy with the Honda all kitted out with various customized items - he wants his Honda to stand out from the other Honda's - it isn't only about improving the performance.