Why are subwoofers so polarizing?

Bo, I respect your passion for audio and being a dealer that seems to care about his customers. Your limited experience with Velodyne Subwoofers has left you with an understandable impression.

Currently Velodyne DD Plus subwoofers offer the user three methods of room optimization. Other than running a proprietary tone CD and a supplied microphone setup the first two programs are automatic in nature and require little input from the user. These two auto settings provided a somewhat boomy and not very well integrated result in my room with my system.

The Velodyne Manual Optimization requires the auto programs to be performed first as well as a software loaded computer linked to the sub.

The Manual Optimization is quite extensive and can initially be over the heads of many users but soon becomes easily useable. Velodyne offers very good support in this area. Manual offers a distinctive view of the total system frequencies between 1- 200Hz as seen in many periodical subwoofer reviews, as well as a full menu of EQ adjustments.

I spent the better part of a weekend of adjustment and listening sessions using the supplied tone generation CD, professional studio raw track file recordings of my Upright Double Basses, fretless Fender Jazz Bass, and a few very familiar recordings, to adjust my two Velodyne DD-12 Plus. This was simply to get the first and primary preset setup to MY taste. Long story short, the amount of time one spends with the Velodyne Manual Optimization can depend on many variables as well as one taste in low frequency reproduction.

I can't hear my subs unless some obvious ELF media is being played but turning them off is quite dramatic. Using sweep tone test material I cannot tell when my mains are running out and the subs takeover. It's seamless.

As you, I do not know which method your user used or just how much effort was spent on the users taste of integration. Judging by your description only the auto optimization was used which, in my experience, provides the presentation you've described. Unknowingly, this made enough of an impression on you to declare this as the sonic limits of Velodyne DD subs.

I can't help but respectfully yet strongly disagree with your assessment of Velodyne DD and DD Plus products. You're being a member of the audio industry I would suggest you consider your public negativity towards brands that you do not carry and especially brands that you admit to having limited first hand knowledge of. It may lower your credibility and is simply misleading.

The Monitor products you sell seem to be of high quality and well thought out. Your setup method is unusual but you seem to have found a presentation that satisfies you and more importantly your customers. Well done.

If the Velodyne would be better and faster I would have bought these. I do not say they are bad. I am a perfectionist. I want to test as much as possible, Always looking for the best. For myself I Always only interested in the best. For my clients I have the same policy. I like to send my clients to other shops to listen to competitors. Because I already know they things I demonstrated are superior. Looking for the best gives me a big advantage to compete. It makes me a lot easier to get a higher level for my clients. I want my clients to know they get the best for there money. I use Velodyne sub's to let my clients understand why the Monitor Audio sub's are faster. I love comparing in audio. It gives a lot of fun and information about the properties/talents of the tool I test.

I asked you twice about your experience with Velodyne subwoofers and you replied.
["A few hours, the owner of the Velodyne had done the room acoustic settings. So I do not know which setting."]
Clearly, you don't have a clue as to the potential of Velodyne Room Optimization or would simply rather not let on about the equalization potential of these adjustments.

Now your saying.
["I use Velodyne sub's to let my clients understand why the Monitor Audio sub's are faster. I love comparing in audio."]

So your using uncalibrated Velodyne subwoofers in comparison to demonstrate the so called superiority of the brand you sell as the "best."? Hardly a comparison.

All of a sudden I feel sorry for your customers.

What I do is I send clients to shops were they sell Velodyne. It is not my responsibility how they do there demo. This is a very easy way to convince. I never heard a demo of a Velodyne at a show that I was thrilled. I Always have my own cd's with me. I give you one clear example; Jacintha Her name is, number 6, I am in the mood for love( I use it Always to test speed, and imaging)Contrabass is on the left side of this recording. And it needs to be very direct and small in proportion. At a show with Velodyne and at home of a client with A DD18 I had the same experience with the same number. Instruments become bigger and the image is getting less focussed. I am still waiting for a demo with Velodyne to get a big smile on my face. The only part I liked is they solve the acoustic problems in the low freq. even in a small room. But I never heard a stereo demo of Velodyne ( every year you find some Velodyne demo's at shows) that the sub was full integrated with the speakers and the image had an extreme direct to point out and touchable image. Or you think the people who gave these demo's are all that stuppid!!

I do not think there is a simple answer to the original question. IMO there are
many reasons. First, my feeling is that initially many speaker manufactures
had very little understanding (if any) about the interaction between a sub,
room and main speakers, so they simple did not know how to built a proper
subwoofer. Combining this with the purist approach mentioned above by
Martykl, it is easy to understand how the myth about subwoofers being
detrimental to the sound has started. Second, my feeling is that a significant
percent of the audiophiles have never heard a properly set up subwoofer. This
is because most dealers are unable to properly set up a sub, viz. they have no
idea about interference phenomena (i.e. the way waves interact) and do not
understand how a sub interacts with the room and main speakers. In the
other camp, we have the audiophiles who have aheard a properly integrated
subwoofer, and, of course, bass freaks who want a lot of bass no matter
what.

The fact is, however, that eventually people (i.e. scientists) have taken the
time to study and understand subwoofers properly. Proof of this is not only
the fact that new subs are much better than the old ones (e.g. REL Stentor 3 &
Studio 3 are simply no match for the new Velodine and SVS subs), but also the
wealth of softwares available these days which do wonders when it comes to
integrating a sub into a system. I believe Bo 100% when he says that he gets
marvelous results with the help of such softwares. I get marvelous results too.

Finally, regarding Bo, I should say that, I have cross paths with him here on
audiogon quite a few times, and my experience is that trying to have an
intelligent dialog with him is like trying to communicate with an untrained
chimp or a parrot. He will keep on repeating the same things over and over
again irrespectively of what the other are saying/asking. Take 5 minutes and
glance at his answers, he has hijacked so many threads by writing over and
over again the same things he has also written in this thread.

Bo, it is commendable that a dealer recommends not very expensive (given
hi-end standards) electronics and speakers (e.g. Monitor Audio Platinum
speakers and subwoofers, Pass Labs amps and the Onkyo receivers with
audissey pro software) over much more expensive ones, but the way you do it
is unprofessional and tiring.