Why can't I hear 20 years of phono 'progress'??


How can this be??! A well-regarded 1980 Ortofon VMS20e MkII $150 mm cartridge in an ambivalently-regarded 1980 Thorens TD115 $430 turntable sounds identical to a highly-regarded 2002 Grado The Reference (high-output) $1200 cartridge in an equally-highly-regarded 2002 modded Rega Planar 25 $1275 turntable. Before you dismiss me as another naïve wacko, please read a little further.

I’ve been building a whole new system over the past year and a half, made critical auditions of dozens of components, and been quite satisfied with my 45yo ears and results. You can click on my system below for an OTT description, but with everything else in place, I’m listening to the carts through a fine BelCanto Phono1 -> AQ Emerald -> retubed Sonic Frontiers Line1 -> AQ Viper -> Steve McCormack-upgraded DNA0.5 -> AQ Bedrock -> Thiel 2.3 -> great room acoustics, or Headroom Max -> Stefan AudioArt Equinox -> Sennheiser HD600.

I’ve had the Rega-Grado paired for over two months, both items bought separately from A’gon. Cart has several hundred hours, P25 I installed the Expressimo counterweight, donut mat, snugged tonearm nut to plinth and set the speed to 33-1/3 with tape on the subplatter. FWIW, the Thorens has an upgraded mat and cables, record clamp and 10lbs of inert clay in the base, and new belts and styli over the years. The cartridges set up and align perfectly in both units, confirmed with test records. I know the 115/vms20 to be very synergistic, and, hum aside, had always thought the rb600/grado worked well together.

We’ve been just loving the sound of the Rega-Grado for those two months, so before I put the Thorens into storage I just wanted to remind myself what I had been listening to for 23 years.

That was a couple weeks and way too many hours of clinical listening ago. Despite swapping equipment stands, matching levels, and playing every type and quality of vinyl, I’ve never heard two pieces of equipment sound so identical, this after choosing between DACs, CD transports, digital and analog interconnects, vacuum tubes, headphone amps, preamps, etc.

Both the overall sit-back-and-relax musicality and every audiophile definition from general frequency balance and PRaT to bass articulation and depth retrieval are the same(!) The most I can say now is that on the best recordings with the most focused and careful listening, the P25 has more inner detail on vocals, more articulation on complex cymbal brushwork, and smoother massed strings. But most of the time I had to confirm this (barely) with headphones, it was below the resolution of the Thiels that have unraveled every other upstream difference before!

I’m sure a true Golden Ears with a $100K system could be more conclusive. The Thorens' semi-auto operation, sprung dustcover, detachable tonearm wands, replaceable styli, front-panel cueing, electronic speed control are all huge real-world advantages over the Rega-Grado hum, $800 retip and fully-manual operation. So what gives?? Have I done something blatantly wrong with the Rega? How can a 23yo $580 rig equal 5yo designs adding up to $2600? I always knew my 115/vms20 combo sounded good, but never expected this – I’d sell the P25/reference at a loss but for nobody believing that my archaic TT is even in the same sonic league! Plus the newer record player gives more 'street cred' to the whole system(?) All enlightened suggestions, useful comments and curious questions welcome. I've come to trust many of you and your inputs over the months, so don't be shy! No, I won’t be selling my Thorens at bluebook :-)
128x128sdecker
Tom's and the others' analysis of the relative cost issue was in direct response to a part of the question. Although I must regrettably agree that many things analog are today priced rather exhorbitantly for what they are, this same criticism can be fairly levelled, as you know, at all areas of the high end, and is simply the result of the luxury market process, the playing field of which we are free to pick and choose from (or not) as will and necessity dictate. My only problem with the cost/inflation scenario depicted above is not that it is "disingenuous", but that to a neophyte casual reader, it would be possible to construe from it that higher price is inextricably tied to higher performance. However, knowing Tom's philosophy a bit better than that, I am sure that was an unintentional impression, which is beside the point to his main argument, one that could just as easily be interpreted conservatively as advocating sticking with the older, cheaper solution and, as you suggest, putting the difference back into new software.

What I do perceive as "disingenuous" is your contention that Tom's analysis is somehow offered as a "specious" example of "...proclaiming it [analog] to be superior in every way to the other way of doing things [digital]...". I honestly don't see how you can get here from there, and such a hyperbolic non-sequitor tends to shade your overall critique with the very same "speciousness" you say you deplore. You are correct, however, in pointing out that within the larger audiophile galaxy (not to mention the non-audiophile real world), digital is still king, and it was not necessary or true to paint you as one of the last remnants of a failed revolution. But, as a poke at yourself, the observation was well within the spirit that you entered into the discussion with, so please don't get sanctimonious about it.

As I said, I generally welcome your contrarian/realist perspective in any discussion based on principle, if not always substance, and whether I fully agree or not. Still, it would go a long way for your own credibility if you would acknowledge for the sake of completeness that technically, analog is in important ways the more information-rich medium, and that there are perfectly rational reasons why an audiophile - and a music-lover - would continue to pursue the format even in this new century. And I also advise lightening up a bit - your 'side' is in absolutely no danger of the losing the 'war', so over-defensiveness looks unbecoming. Besides, no one wins an argument by contending that others should not receive the pleasure that they do because it is irrational (whether that were true or not), and in our hobby as any other, receiving pleasure is at the end of the day the only justification possible (the same could be said of posting on Audiogon too, so all of our motivations are quite naked if you think about it...).
Psychicanimal...I agree that all of those cartridges mentioned are still around, but I would ask you, or rather the maufacturers, how these cartridges sound compared to the equivalent-named models of years ago. Also, for some of them, those cartridges years ago may have been near the top of there line and are now middle-of-the-pack. I was talking to someone at Grado a few months ago, and they told me they have made many advances since 1980's that allow for much more retrieval of detail and resolution
Pbb said, "Unlike AA, I have never seen that Audiogon is actually presented as a folder with numerous tabs. Yes, if one is to start a thread, one chooses such a "tab", but thereafter, and correct me if I am wrong, everything is presented in a seamless way."

Since you are quite mistaken, and requested a correction if so, here it is:

1. Go to the Audiogon home page

2. In the right hand column under "Learn", click on "Discussion Forums"

Your screen will display a list of tabs, among which are "Digital", "Analog" and a variety of others. This thread, obviously, is under the analog tab. This path is the easiest way to quickly find current discussions that interest me. When I was shopping for a CDP I kept an eye on all the digital threads. When I was shopping for a turntable... you get the idea.

Visitors to A'gon who are looking for knowledge in a particular area of audio will find it most easily by navigating in this way. For them to click on "Digital" and read diatribes about the superiority of analog would be just as annoying as the reverse. That's why your post and Bomarc's were out-of-bounds.

As Zaikesman said, your contrarian approach can help the rest of us keep our heads on straight. For that I too commend you. But you reach too far, and so risk losing your grasp on anyone.
Doug, I never do it that way. I usually look up new threads in "New Today" or "Recent Discourse". To see what people have responded to my banter and very occasional rants, I go to "My Threads". BTW, I still don't think that Audiogon is set up with titled forums to squelch discussion. Audio is now a minefield or a swamp or a series of gated communities, take your pick. It's a pity. I still plan on installing some kind of acoustically transparent but opaque curtain between my listening position and my equipment, so convinced am I that the mere fact that when one sees the stuff it colours one's judgment of the quality of sound reproduction. Maybe I will pay someone to stealthily change the equipment now and again, for progressively cheaper items to see how low I can go! You probably heard the story about the audiophile being tremendously impressed by a system playing in someone's room thinking it was powered by one of the sacred cows only to find that the power amp hidden in a cabinet was a Quad 405. Well, anticipation works that way. Within wide enough limits, if you think you can hear it, you will whether or not it's there. If the original poster is satisfied with his observation, why can't it be taken at face value? Kudos to Sean for proposing that notion. The most important link in the audio chain is probably one's imagination. Which does not mean it all sounds the same, but that's another story.
Pbb: I try to call it as i see it. As such, sometimes i might be someone's friend and sometimes i might be someone's enemy. Either way, thanks for the kind words : )

As a side note and something that i find kind of a "funny coincidence" given what you said and how it pertained to my comments, i'm running two Quad 405's in my bedroom system : ) Sean
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