Will a subwoofer add depth and clarity to my system, or just bass?

Dear friends: Sorry to be late in this thread but normally I don't post in this Agon speakers forum but more in the analog forum.

Well years ago I decided ( with out experiences about. ) to add a pair of self powered subs to my room/system even that my main speakers goes down 16hz.

My first step was to investigate some subwoofer manufacturers designs and due that my ADS speakers are sealed/acoustic suspension design I choosed that my subs must be sealed design. Then looking through different models from several manufacturers I stopped at Velodyne that in those times, and I think that even today, designed the subs with the lower THD: 0.5%. JL touted subs trhough a STP review measured around 
Till today only the Magico subs meets that spec for 200K+ pair of powered subs ! ! !

I decided that my ADS main speakers been/functioned as true satellite speaker system along the subs and for this a high-pass filter is a must to.

This is what I posted in my subs thread that explain my decision/reasons in those times:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

I took several months for those Velodyne's been integrated in my system with out room corrections software/hardware but trial and error long testing sessions.

I was lucky enough that in reality I did not to add the external hardware for the high-pass filter ( the Velodyne high-pass as any other external filter only degrades the signal. ) due that my monobloks by Levinson are capacitor coupled and the only I had to do, with additional advantages in the signal handled by the monoblocks, was change the input wima caps by a lot lower value of Teflon Cu VH-caps and resistors by Vishay Z-foil naked 2275 series.

So the preamp signal goes directly to the Velodyne low-pass filter and directly to the monobloks with no single degradation but the other way around: a serously improvement in that input signal that goes to the main speakers.

Here I have to say that my ADS are " heavy " mofied over the stock design and similar up-grades are inside each Velodyne.

Yes I'm really satisfied with because with out rigth bass management we really can't have top quality audio system performance levels.

I think that any passive speakers needs for a pair of self powered subs, any.


Time after the integration of the Velodyne's I found out this link:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/00da/51387c572cfd27c0256cb15e44e976a1a72e.pdf


where we can read that the " ideal " number of subs is: 


""  Four subwoofer at the wall midpoints (configuration 11) was the best practical configuration in terms of MSV. Two subwoofers at opposing wall midpoints (configuration 6) was nearly as good and also offered stronger low-frequency support. Configurations with more than four subwoofers were not found to be advantageous, especially when cost is factored in. These results appear to be generalizable to reasonably dimensioned rectangular spaces [19] .   """

Bass management must be our system main priority to achieve top quality listening levels with passive speakers.

Well integrated system subwoofers makes a huge differences for the better always: nigth and day differences.

We always have to remember that trhough all frequency response system ranges signal/music notes always develops harmonics that can switch onn the " ligth " or switch off it.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Hello rauliruegas,
     Yes, I agree that attaining good, low distortion bass response performance in your room and system is very important not only for maximizing the accuracy and realism of reproduced music but also optimizing our enjoyment of it.  Once I began using a 4-sub distributed bass array system in my system, I noticed there was a lot more musical details present in the bass region on good recordings that I didn't previously realize were even there. 
      It's much more difficult to attain good bass response in most rooms than it is to get good midrange and treble response, mainly due to the physical sound waves of bass frequencies being much longer and behaving differently than the much shorter midrange and treble frequencies'  sound waves in the same room.  
     Because of these facts, I currently believe high quality audio systems should be considered 2 separate systems; a bass system and a midrange, treble and stereo imaging system.  
     My system building approach has evolved to getting good bass response in the room as the primary and initial goal.  My current opinion is that a 4-sub dba system is an excellent and almost guaranteed method of achieving this goal but I think it's important to mention it's not the only method, especially if an individual only requires very good bass response at a single 'sweet spot' listening seat.  A properly setup 4-sub dba system requires no room correction software or hardware, minimal equalization and zero bass room treatments.  However, all are optional except bass traps, if these are deemed necessary then the dba was most likely not positioned properly.
     Once the bass system's response has been optimized in the room, the next goal is the easier and more familiar step of optimally positioning the main l+r speakers in relation to the dedicated 'sweetspot' listening seat for best midrange response, treble response and imaging along with any non-bass frequency room treatments deemed necessary.  

Tim 
     

Dear @noble100  : ""  It's much more difficult to attain good bass response in most rooms than it is to get good midrange and treble response, ...""

no doubt about.

There are some " problems " with passive speakers design even with full range models as could be the top Wilson, Magico or any other:

main trouble/problem is that a full range passive designs are handled by " universal " amplifiers. Amplifiers designed to performs not in a specific frequency range but to performs all over the frequency range and designed to make a whole good work. The amps are not designed to match in specific the woofers overall needs, so it makes a " so so " job and that's all.

In a self powered subs as my Velodyne's ( out of production. ) the designers of the subs took in count every woofer characteristic and how and what to do for the dedicated amp can fulfill it.
A true advantage in the Velodyne's is its very low distortion levels that Velodyne achieves  checking over 16K times for second the woofer excursions to not permit over 0.5% ( normally performs way down that figure. ).

So , it's not only important to have an evenly bass room response but with low overall distortions.

Bass range is the foundation of MUSIC in a home room/system, as better the bass as better the overall quality performance levels of that room/system.

Look this room/system:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615  

the " center " of the system are the Evolution speakers that are a true full range design that uses a pair of self powered subwoofers sealed towers:


http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mm-series/mmseven/

R. 

rauliruegas,

     I think those Evolution Acoustics mm-series twin self-powered sub towers certainly look impressive and like they'll reproduce very good bass.  
     I believe it's possible to get very good in-room bass response in most rooms at a specific dedicated but relatively small section of a given room usually referred to as a 'sweet spot' with only 2 subs regardless of size or price.  I believe that low distortion bass is beneficial if the bass is still perceived as low distortion/accurate bass once the bass sound waves are launched into the room, some of these bass sound waves arrive unaltered directly at the listening position and other bass sound waves arrive at this listening position altered after reflecting/bouncing off of 1 or more room boundaries and the brain processes these multiple bass sound waves, arriving within milliseconds of each other, by summing them.  

     Once the 2 subs are properly positioned properly in the room to provide good bass response at the dedicated 'sweet spot', however, the bass response will not be consistently perceived as good throughout the entire room.  The bass will be perceived as exaggerated, attenuated and even non existent at various specific spots in the room where room bass sound waves meet. 
     I also suggest you may have been too trusting of information produced by Velodyne's marketing department concerning the audible difference between bass sound waves produced by one of their self-amplified subs versus those produced by a competitor's passive sub powered by a good quality external amp.
     Getting very good in-room bass response is definitely not as simple as buying the 'right' brand and model subs and plopping them down at convenient positions in the room.  Principles of physics, psycho acoustics, the material composition of room boundaries (walls, floors and ceilings)  and even the physical dimensions of the room itself are all important factors in a dynamic environment.

Tim 

Dear @noble100  : Maybe I do not explain me very well ( normally in me. ). 

It's not that I'm deep founded in the Velodyne's subs. What I try to say is that evenly room bass range  must start with those  ( 2 0r more. ) self powered subs that by specs has the lower self distortion figures.

Again, today for home audio systems the only self powered subwoofers with lower than 1% distortion levels is the ones coming from Magico $$$. It performs that way with measured 136 db SPL.

Velodyne is out of audio market.

The main reason that moves me to buy and integrate two subs in my room/stereo system was to achieve the lowest overall distortions I can under my own room/system limitations.
My room/system main target is to stay nearer to the recording and first parameter to approach that target is to mantain any kind of distortions ( coming from every where. ) at minimum.

In my room/system I confirm that Harman International is rigth on what their white papers I linked conclude: ideally 4 but with two subs you can achieve almost same quality level and there explain about.

I don't disagree with you even that I know you are in deep about the use of 4 subs and in Agon forums there are other gentlemans where their systems approach is the same of yours and are truly satisfied.

According with what other audiophiles/musicians and me already experienced in my room/system seems to me that I really am lucky that with 2 subs have not discernable problems developed by bass range at a sweet pot not extremly limited and certainly not wider as over the enterely room, of course not. My system is at the parlor of my house and more than a true limitations for the bass response I think that already helped for that " lucky " scenario I pointed out. My subs are positioned at a very unorthodox place.

Btw, seems to me that you are an expert in this overall bass range subject and certainly I'm not but only a " lucky " guy.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.