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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Another eval of "A Day in the Life" Beatles. I use that because I am sure many people have there music to compare.

The song on vintage tube all Mundorf. (one Supreme one SIO tweeter cap)

Aggressive sounding

The song with Duelund/vintage is about Ringo peacefully in his own space with the orchestra in the background center. You can visualize him all by himself. There is a spot in the end where John is made to float and the orchestra is brought forward. I only knew this after Duelund/vintage.

With the Mundorf the sound is much more aggressive. Ringo is not in his own space and is not drumming in peaceful isolation. The orchestra is overbearing. John does not float. It is not the same soft beautiful subtle song with the same effects.

I always wanted to know what some of the differences were in caps. I know rated 10, 11 or 6 or whatever and Tony touches on it but what does it mean? I know it is easy to say what is wrong with say Bennic (noisy and very harsh)(or in my case Sonicaps lack of dynamics) but what is the difference at the higher level?

This is a very interesting note.

I have praised up the vintage Fisher no end on foil caps and beat up the SS Linn Klout. On the foil caps the Linn Klout sounds awful very mid range shouty. On the Mundorf's now that I have put the Linn Klout back in it at least sounds as good as the tube amp and if not better!!???

So for sure there is something about foil caps and vintage tubes and horns. Likely all voiced together at the same time from the same era.

The Linn Klout on digital sounds Ok on the Mundorf's not as good as vintage tube on foil but certainly not worse than the vintage and I think better.
Somewhat faster and better timing. But neither make "real" instruments in my mind on plastic caps.

I am going to hook back up the Lp12 which will be nice as most of my music is on vinyl and the phono section on the vintage (to me) was awful!
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Undertow
I hope and pray you are wrong. (no offense) I hope the CAST is better than the VSF in the crossover. I am only going on the hunch that the CAST is the same but has better damping properties. (what they have been saying) I have talked to Duelund and Burt Doppenberg. They both said the CAST was better but you are right also meaning deminishing rates of return. Better I can live with and say whether or not it is worth the $. Worse would not be good!

I understand the CAST to be much quieter but maybe only really noticeable on horn type speakers. The CAST were designed for horns as horn and noise not being good. Horns are great to reveal everything but that is a double edge sword.
undertow
1,033 posts
 
Well my only cavet over the issue is being such a supreme cap so to speak is only being used in a very limited frequency response application.. I would say for the money at that point I hate to say but the VSF is probably 99% of it and you would never know the difference.... If it was a full range audio signal in a tube electronic along with being a major piece in the signal of the system I could see some slight advantage possibly of the cast...

Other than that I am just speaking from an outside point of view knowing I would never pay that much especially for the type of application here. Your electronics might come into play more than you wish after running the cast because now you might have moved to another facet of this thing and really need to feed those horns with something VERY quiet and dynamic to get the optimal results, your pair of capacitors in cost now virtually outweight the entire worth of the whole system it seems.

There is however some glimmer of hope, I never knew the background noise a cap could filter until I heard the MR's, they are dead silent, and I thought the other caps were dead silent before the experience! I assume the cast could have similar results due to this whole talk on internal vibration control character these very new hi end caps are addressing.

Good Luck
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Undertow we for sure do not feel the same of importantance of the the crossover caps. Limited freq response? I am am confused the mids and highs are run by the mid and tweeter cap. Other than the inductor for the woofer all freq are covered by crossover caps?

As for the differnce from foil Duelund to Mundorf not being in a critical area? It is the biggest difference from any component I have ever heard.

As for the CAST being better maybe not, but the difference from Duelund to Mundorf on tubes is MASSIVE!
undertow
1,033 posts
 
I think you mis understood the comment... Point being the caps you are using in a crossover are only handling each portion separatley, in otherwords you are using a cap to feed each driver which is only producing a very limited range of audio response. Use a cap in an amp or preamp etc.. And it is feeding the entire range at all times.

\Your dividing up the bands and thats the point of a crossover in the first place. Again simply illustrating there might be a true point of diminishing returns here, using your mundorf on a woofer alone for example will probably perform nearly identical to a CAst or any other in most speakers.. The cast would show more of its performance optimaly on a mid or tweeter alone so to speak.

And in a full range application literally output caps directly in a signal of the electronics exhibit much more of what a cap is capable in with my experience.. Much why many like to use these V-caps and other teflons as they have a bit higher power handling and complete frequency spectrums.. Again in a loudspeaker even these guys testing only used and state that mundorf or duelund was tested in loudspeaker application only for example, mainly because they are too large in size and or just not really designated to be electronic device caps, Although the mundorfs have very high voltage ratings, and thats fine. I have used Mundorfs top caps in electronics, it was much better suited in the crossover, however the clarity MR's and Jantzen superiors are much better in these applications for instance of electronics.
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