Which watts are the right watts in SS amps?


Hello Sports Fans!

More than a few people over the years on these pages have said only those SS amps which double down in output power as impedance drops are truly special or worthy amps. Eg., 200 @ 8ohms; 400 @ 4 ohms; 800 @ 2 ohms; etc.

Not every SS amp made does this trick. Some very expensive ones don’t quite get to twice their 8 ohm rated power when impedance halves to four ohms. BAT, darTZeel, Wells, and Ypsalon to name just a few.

An amps ‘‘soul’’ or it’s ‘voice’ is the main reason why I would opt in on choosing an amp initially and keeping it. Simultaneously , I’d consider its power and the demands of what ever speakers may be intended to be run with it or them.

I’ve heard, 80% of the music we are listening to is made in the first 20wpc! I’m sure there’s some wisdom in there somewhere as many SS amps running AB, are biased to class A Only for a small portion of the total output EX. 10 – 60 wpc of 150 or 250 wpc.

After all, any amps true output levels are a complete mystery when anyone is listening to music anyhow.

I suspect, not being able to actually measure true power consumption, the vast majority of listening sessions revolve around 60wpc or so being at hand with traditional modern reasonably efficient speakers.

Sure, there are those speakers which don’t fit into the traditional loudspeaker power needs mold such as panels or electrostats, and this ain’t about them.

The possibility of clipping a driver is about the only facet in amp to speaker matching which gives a person pause while pondering this or that amplifier.

I feel there is more to how good an amp is than its ability tou double output power with 50% drops in speaker impedance.

However, speakers are demanding more power lately. Many are coming out of the gates with 4 ohm ‘nominal’ IMPs which lower with fluctuations in frequency. Add in larger motors on larger drivers, multiple driver arrays, and on paper these SOTA speakers appear to need more power.

IMHO It is this note which introduces great concern.

I’ve read every article I can find on Vienna Acoustics Music. Each one says give them lots of watts for them to excel.

Many times good sounding speakers I’ve owned sounded better with more power, albeit from arguably a better amp.

I tend to believe having more than an adequate amount of cap power is indeed integral. … naturally the size and type of transformers in play possess a strong vote for an amps ability to successfully mate with speakers.

Controlling a driver’s ability to stop and restart is as well a key to great sound and only strong amplifiers can manage this feat. Usually this gets attributed to ‘damping’ factor, but damping as I read it is more a shadow than a tangible real world figure as it depends on numerous factors. Speaker cable length alone can alter damping factors.

A very good argument exists about those mega watt amps voices. Each 500 or 600 wpc amp or amps, I’ve heard have had stellar voices too, not merely more watts.

So is it predominately these mega watt power house amps souls or their capacities that fuels the speakers presentation?

Would you buy an ‘uber expensive’ amp based more on its voice or soul, than on its ability to output loads of watts, even if you feel the amp may be somewhat under powered for the application?

Choosing this latter option also saves one money as the more powerful amps do cost more than their lower outputting siblings.

Please, share your experiences if possible.

Tanks muchly!

blindjim
P.S. I like it better when he’s pushing Schiit products as the best thing after sliced bread...
Schiit is probably the best bang for buck on the market, better performance per dollar than that McIntosh blue xmas tree junk you have with autotransformers. I'd stack the Schiit Vidar at $699 up against it on speakers they could both drive easily.

And yes Ralph as inna pointed out, are you nutz even suggesting any of your amps would compete with the Gryphon I mentioned on a speaker such as the Wilson Alexia, or others even with similar hard varying loads.

Cheers George
I now have a pair of 99db efficient (allegedly) Klipsch Heresy III speakers that seem to work very well with my silly little 12 watt per side SEP amp.  To put this in sophisticated audiophile terms, it can now rip the paint off the ceiling and fry your head. Isn't that what one wants? Also my new Schiit Freya preamp with upgraded tubes (no biggie, simply a set of new Tung Sol 6SN7GTBs until I find something more exotic to play with) sounds real good in this combo….note the amp, preamp, and speakers were all embarrassingly inexpensive, so I shall remain embarrassed. Feel free to mock me….I can take it.
aginst my better judgement, and because I don't want to duplicate posts amongst threads I'll reply here rather than onto the TEC TALK version of this.

well, that and because it just seems right to acknowledge those who took the time to voice thier EXP as it would be rude not to   IMHO.
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@atmasphere > ….Bandwidth, not power

Blindjim > for well over a decade now, Ralph, you have been a wealth of information. Now and then no various topics I’ve been under educated in and all of that input has been well received and I am totally grateful for acquiring. Sincerely. Thanks..

Bandwidth. really? Wow. I stand corrected. I had felt via EXP only with the application of low and mid powered amps with various speakers along my way, that the more HP an amp possessed, though perhaps not applied fully, kept the drivers on point better. I found this very true with BW speakers which I had a bunch of models along my early years and then being a member here.


Atmas > There is an issue here, the harder you make the amp work, the more distortion it will make. You can see this in the distortion vs frequency specs of all amplifiers. The distortion is audible too- in the form of increased brightness and hardness, caused by higher ordered harmonics to which the ear is keenly sensitive, as it uses them to sense sound pressure.

Blindjim > now here is where things may become confusing to me.

Almost invariably I’ve noticed in friends outfits, that some were noticeably IMO underpowered as the sound in the mids and bottom end was well, I’ll go with ‘soft’’ or fuzzy. Not to the point of most people’s notice, but to my own appraisal. Again, I came to this revelation by moving up in amp power rating and build quality as time passed so it was actually an incidental observation. Albeit, a valid observation no less.

As well, the mids and top ends previous to the increase and as well improvement to the amp via upgrade, resolved much if not all of the so called ‘brightness’ and or hard (flat) tones.

Indeed the overall presentation became more realistic, better mannered, and musically accurate.

I do hear things somewhat better than many from the lack of sight. Although, I’d say it is more a result of being forced to rely upon it and use it unlike most. It ain’t from being hit with gamma rays or contact with red kryptonite that’s for sure.

However, I’ll acquiesce to your point. Somewhat more now, though controlling the drivers starting and stoping repeatedly seems a consideration for accuracy in recreating any tone purely and IMO was an attribute of the EMF or from the output devices of the amp.

I’ve been mistaken before. Never wrong but now and then, mistaken.. no problem. It doesn’t hurt as much any more.

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@georgehifi

Many thanks for your ongoing interest and input. Really. Thanks a lot.
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@inna
You are a true eye opener with the items you continue to bring to the table as options, choices, alternate paths and or insights. They are obviously ones I’d not have stumbled across alone. Huge thanks for these insights.

I’ll not try to meddle with you and Atmas obvious issue, but I’ve never seen Atmas post anything untoward or include his own products as an alternative path when he infuses his thoughts into a thread.

Perhaps, allowing other people to be other people might be a better tact, but then this is just something I’m obliged to pursue, no one else has to trod that road if they don’t want to.

Thanks Inna. Much appreciation.

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@Kalali > Really interesting....

Blindjim > hmmm. It do get that way around here from time to time.
Personally I’ve learned a lot here today.

So long as I can learn something new each day it’s a good day. And everybody has something to offer. Always.

Almost invariably I’ve noticed in friends outfits, that some were noticeably IMO underpowered as the sound in the mids and bottom end was well, I’ll go with ‘soft’’ or fuzzy. Not to the point of most people’s notice, but to my own appraisal. Again, I came to this revelation by moving up in amp power rating and build quality as time passed so it was actually an incidental observation. Albeit, a valid observation no less.
@blindjim that description really sounds like the amp clipping- all bets are off at that point.
are you nutz even suggesting any of your amps would compete with the Gryphon I mentioned on a speaker such as the Wilson Alexia, or others even with similar hard varying loads.
Funny about that- John Giolas had our amps for years- Soundstage thought it was the best system they had ever heard. Going back decades, our amps have worked pretty well on the Wilson speakers. The newer speakers are lower impedance, but in practice retain the Wilson quality of otherwise being easy to drive. And as you know, if its merely an impedance issue, the ZEROs are always there to help any amplifier out.

I rather doubt that I'll get the opportunity to hear our amps against the Gryphons while driving Wilsons, but it would be fun.

Jim, as I remember, you are going to use digital source and later maybe open reel deck, and that's big maybe.
Whatever you do, whatever components and speakers you eventually choose, you will not get great sound. At best you will get a more or less acceptable sound. I know that you know it. As I said before, you appear to be leading yourself into a trap. And I believe that you know it as well. There is no real solution within this system. 
Neither Gryphon nor Ypsilon nor others can correct the source, they will do some cover-up and smooth the way, nothing more.