Jazz for aficionados

**** Also, I do not beleive that anybody would consider jazz to be less significant because its creators have been influenced or exposed to other styles of music which they incorporated to that new sound.

Why is that even an issue?****

Excellent point and excellent question. I have some thoughts on the matter, but ultimately I think it comes down to human nature and how difficult it is for most of us to admit, if only to ourselves, that we have been wrong about something for a long time.

**** I wonder why the people who can talk music to death can not play music to death****

By that ridiculous notion (and silly attempt at a dig) it could be said that Bird, Blakey, Desmond, Coltrane, Miles.....you name it, “could not play music to death”. All, and just about every Jazz musician of any standing, have supported what Wynton speaks of and many have been very vocal about it.

None of this knowledge is necessary to enjoy the music. However, it can definitely add an entirely new dimension to the experience and enjoyment of it. Why some feel the need to take that away from those who do appreciate that perspective is something that is way above my pay grade as far as the psychology of it all goes.

Today's Listen:

Vanessa Rubin  --  VANESSA RUBIN SINGS

From the notes, a question for all you so-called Aficionados.

"Q: What do Vanessa Rubin, Frank Sinatra, Lena Horne, Buddy Rich... and a frog have in common?"
If you don't know the answer, tear up those Aficionado cards.

it's probably me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d4gFRV4n9k  

being green
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4GyPaPt4Cc   

our love is here to stay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bx2FBdWE88   

black coffee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvn8YXbMlwE   

his eye is one the sparrow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LABN2P_eWI0  

Cheers

I can not believe this fantastic lady "Venessa Rubin" is not in my collection, but that will be corrected; thank you Rok.

I am curious to understand why they think that Wynton is ’bending’ the truth.

Alex, he is not bending the truth so much as, he is telling people what they desire to hear. I almost want to say that you have to be born here to understand all the nuances in American history. That’s true for any country.

A very superficial take:

For instance:
If you are a member of a certain group and you venture into a place / endeavor dominated by the other group, then a member of that dominant group must bless you. Or say in effect "he’s ok, he’s the real deal", he can do, whatever, "as well as we can". In Jazz, "he can play". Then everyone is reassured, smiles all around, and we all move on. It is common and accepted.   The person doing the blessing must be considered The Best at that particular endeavor.

That’s all Wynton was doing. Saying in effect, there were / is white / European influences and contributions in Jazz. Everyone was reassured, smiled and listened to Wynton and Jon play EVERYONE"S music.

That’s the American way. Everyone must be included. Remember, when the Jazz wars were fought, back at the turn of the century, this was a country full of Europeans living on the American Continent. As time goes on, the country becomes more and more American. Everyone had an ’Old Country’ back then, except black folks, who are the most American of all people. So it’s only fitting that they produced the first American Music.

Cheers

**** Can any one tell me how swing sounds like "Bop"? ****

Sure. However, I think a better question is “how does Bop sound like Swing?”. A subtle, but important distinction. With respect, those are not particularly good examples to make the point. Prez playing a slow ballad and Bird playing a very fast tune clouds the issue. Perhaps they serve to skew the argument one way and not the other, but there are more “neutral” examples. Here is Prez and Bird both playing “Body and Soul”

https://youtu.be/tBfqqbm50uw

https://youtu.be/prbqc3C6968

Here is an even better comparison to your question. Prez and then Bird playing an up tempo Blues:

https://youtu.be/jeHkeoYNGgI

https://youtu.be/5pVxWdnInWY

How do they sound alike? Let’s put aside the obvious. Same instrumentation; although Prez is on tenor and Bird is on alto. Now, the less obvious:

Both tunes use the exact same “form”, the 12 measure Blues form. Prez plays it in a Swing style and Bird in a Bebop style. The even less obvious:

In keeping with the classic differences between the two styles, and following all that we know (should know) about the general trends (evolution) in Jazz, Bird’s improvisation is more adventurous in that he plays faster and much more “outside” the very simple harmony of the Blues form while Prez is a lot more conservative staying closer to home. Bird uses more and faster ornamentation and deviates much more from the melody of the tune. He also plays with a more aggressive tone. All hallmarks of Bebop. Many would say they are also hallmarks of the way society in general was moving: emphasis on faster and deviation from norms; but still within the same framework (form). To illustrate the evolution from one style to the next even more let’s go backwards in time.

Here is Louis Armstrong playing a Blues form; exact same 12 measure Blues form. He plays more simply and “inside” than even Prez. Also notice how from Louis to Prez to Bird there was a lineage in their respective swing feels; from a more square “swingy” feel to Bird’s more fluid swing.

Here’s a fascinating recording. “Cherokee” with Bird on tenor (!). Who does he sound a lot like? You guessed it, Prez.

https://youtu.be/60z6fRjjYPo

It’s all a continuum of influences from the past and, in the case of the greats, their own creativity moving the music to a new place. It is still going on today. We of an older generation, or those of us “old at heart” may not like the result; but, just look around at society today. It all sense to me.