Power output of tube amps compared to solid states


I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how tube amp power output relates to solid state power output. I've been looking at the classifieds for tube amps and I see lots of tube amps with 50w or 60w output, but nothing close to the 250w output typical of solid state amps.

So I have no idea what type of tube amp is required for my set up, right now I'm using totem forests with a required power rating of 150w-200w at 8ohms. The bass is so powerful on these that I have the sub crossover set to 40hz.

My question is, are tube amps so efficient that 50w from a tube sounds like 150w from a solid state? Or will 50w output from a tube severely limit how loud I can play my speakers? If so, are tubes usually meant to be driving super-high efficiency speakers?

I had previously tried a tube pre-amp with a solid state power amp (both musical fidelity) and didn't like the results because the imaging suffered greatly, even though the music sounded nicer from a distance. Now I want to try a solid state pre-amp (bryston) with a tube power amp (no idea which brand to look at), but I don't know how much power output I need or if it will even be possible with my speakers. Does anyone know what I would require?
acrossley
Great post there Joe. About your comment that Class A operation reveals lower-power figures that expected: You are absolutely correct that theoretically Class A should be able to yield higher power because there is no zero crossing. There are three main aspects, as I see it, as to why in reality it doesn't work out that way - and also how they impact tone because your comments about differences in tone between single-ended and push-pull are actually related.

1) Accurate low frequency reproduction is more challenging in tube circuits that slide into Class B because the power continuity gets broken when no tube is operating. This particularly impacts the low frequencies because they are the ones that need the most power. And they are the ones that mainly have to do with tone.

If I may use an automotive analogy, it is like comparing a manual transmission with a dual-clutch transmission, such as the ones in the latest Audis and BMWs. There is no interruption of power in the dual-clutch setups since there is always a set of plates that are transmitting full power. This is like Class A. But in the other case, you have to put the clutch in and the RPMs drop like a rock as you disconnect the engine (amp) form the transmission (speakers). This is like Class B. The end result is that tone (mainly bass) is much more easily conveyed in Class A operation since the power is always on tap. There is no denying in the world of automobiles that constant power leads to higher performance. Guess which mode of transmission is used in race cars.

2) The actual power ratings are lower than Class AB because of physical power dissipation limits. To operate with a constant bias requires high heat dissipation from the tube's plate. This would be fine except that the cooling medium inside a tube is vacuum, which is as bad as it gets! A vacuum is a terrific thermal insulator since there can be no convection cooling and thus all the cooling is due to "black body raditiation." I have better stop there before I get into the Second Law of Thermodynamics! lol. So yeah, to keep the tube from overheating you have to cut back on the output power. Basically you trade power for bias, which has of course its known merits in addition to this inconvenience.

3) The output transformers in a Class B amp are not designed the same as in a Class A amp. If the amp is Class AB, I am sorry to break the news to some of you but that means it is a Class B amp as far as circuit design goes. Many people feel it is better to say AB rather than B but as far as the electrical design is concerned, there is Class A and then there is Class B.

In a Class A amp, the output transformers have to have an air gap. This means that the core is not made of one continuous piece like it is in a Class B amp. This is due to the fact in Class A you have constant positive DC current in the primaries of the output transformers that should be equal to half the peak output current. In order to prevent the core from "overloading," technically called "saturation," you have to literally cut a slit into the core somewhere so that the excess magnetic field (that goes above and beyond satisfying the core's inherent magentic self-inductance which is what allows it to work in the first place) gets trapped in the air gap. Since air doesn't magnetically saturate, it is a stabilization method for the core.

In addition, this means that a transformer for a Class A amp must be a lot larger than a Class B one because you can't maximize the use of the core since the polarity is always positive, and, the air gap adds its own detriment to the performance of the core.

In a Class B (aka Push-Pull), you don't have to worry about these problems because of what I pointed out in 1) above: the net DC current in the output transformer is essentially zero because the tubes each turn off at the end of their respective cycles. They aren't "on" all the time like they are in Class A.

I feel certain that all these differences account for the changes in sound and tone between a Class A amp and a Class B amp, in addition to the differences in circuit topology of course. If you can live with reduced output power, higher temperatures, higher cost, and higher weight, then Class A has definite advantages. :)

I have two push-pull amps now and I am dying to get a Class A SET because I finally have speakers that can live with their downsides. I’m still in the process of figuring out which one to get. As far as differences between different push-pull amps, that lays in the gray area of performance overlap between designs. Which is better will depend on the type of tube, the power supply design, circuit design, personal preferences, speakers, and room.

As I said before, the sonic results of all these technical details can only be adequately assessed if there is an experienced human in the feedback loop. Only then are all the requisite variables fully taken into account.

Arthur
Arthur,

I just switched from a Class-B (push-pull) tube amp to a Class-A (single-ended) tube amp. My speakers are Rogers Studio 7s (90dbW sensitivity).

Your understanding of the physics of Class-A and Class-B are far beyond mine, but here are my subjective observations.

The Class-A (single-ended) tube amp heats up the room much better than the regular room heater (which I have had to turn off). It gets HOT! I don't know what I am going to do during the summer.

The other thing I have discovered is that my electric bill has doubled (I just got it today)!

Yet it seems to be worth it. The Class-A (single-ended) sounds dramatically more like live music than the Class-B amp does. Everything sounds so much smoother, so much more like what I experience sitting in front of a live string quintet or a live orchestra. It's a dramatic leap up in quality. I have no idea why this is so.

Subjectively, the Class-A amp sounds significantly louder than the Class-B amp even though it has half the wattage. Moreover, the dynamic range seems greater with the Class-A amp. On more than one occasion, I have turned the volume up during a quiet passage only to be blasted out of the sofa during a loud passage. The difference between high and low seem much greater with the Class-A amp, whereas with the Class-B amp dynamic range seems more constricted.

It's hard to cut up the audioband into bass, mid-range, and treble with the Class-A amp. I just hear music. Seemless music. Every note (from high to low) sounds realistic.

Transients seem much more bold and much more dramatic. I dive for cover now during the cannon shots of the 1812.

The class-A amp does not sound soft or romantic in the way that I was expecting. It sounds as sharp, crystalline or as velvety as the music demands. It does not seem to obscure music with an omni-present coloration of its own. It sounds significantly more accurate than my push-pull amp (which gives a slightly rose tinted patina to everything).

Going from Class-B to Class-A has been nothing short of a sonic revelation. I can deal with the heat for the dramatic increase in the beauty and realness of my music.
Arthur, thank you for the insight, I appreciate it. There's a lot to think about there.

I believe the transmission analogy is a good one. Even if for me, accepting the inherent performance superiority of dual clutch transmission, nothing can replace the joy a clutch pedal provides. I'm also glad you touched on Black Body Radiation.

One point of contention is that Class A is not the exclusive condition of the single ended topology. And, conversely, push pull does not need to be Class A/B or Class B; plenty of PP amps operate in Class A.
Arther, I quite enjoyed your post as well (and previous) but was also a bit confused as to which of your comments apply to SE topology and which to class A bias. Seems to me it was actually mostly the former.