A true believer

No, I never said that all like minded people only should post on the gon, but I do think experience is something that is key.

You claim that all wire sounds the the same, and that amps do as well, yet seem to lack experience with the subject so why constantly say these things like this if you don't take the time and try to listen for yourself.

I don't care what your position is, but if you don't try it for yourself, its all hear say and you really have no personal evidence beside "well so and so said so it must be true."

My friends like country music and tell me its good, yet my ears tell me otherwise. It all comes down to personal experience. If you have tried to do critical listening with a system find that you can't tell the different between it and a HTIB, well then thats your experience.

But to go on and on about how can wire make a difference and the challenge to others to prove their points yet not taking the time to try it for your own personal experience, IMO is a waste of time.

Rok2id, I encourage you to read Tubegroover's post above carefully and seriously. I think that not only does it provide valuable practical information, but it points to something that gets lost in these discussions (debates) all too often. There are many on this site that are very experienced in a hobby that is both incredibly rewarding, and equally complex and mysterious. The hobby is a funny marriage of the emotional (music), and the technical (audio). We tend to want to feel that science has explanations for just about anything. We want to be the masters of out universe. We are far from being masters. Those funny little flesh saucers on the side of your head, and the super-computer it is attached to, is far more sensitive than any tool that science has come up with yet. We just need to learn to get in touch with all that potential. Add to this the fact that the subject at hand (music) is one that deals with human emotion, and is it any wonder that tempers fly? By your own admission, you have very little experience in this hobby. Why not open your mind to the possibility that there are some who simply understand more than you do? I think that most of the folks on this site are very well intended, and like Tubegroover, want to share experience, and help others with less experience; in the interest of promoting something which is dear to them; music. I encourage you to be less close minded about these folks' experiences; you will learn much as a result, and enjoy music (which you seem to care about) on a much deeper level.

To Frogman

"Rok2id, I encourage you to read Tubegroover's post above carefully and seriously."

I always read his posts with great attention. He always speaks with sense and knowledge. And if he says he hears wire, I believe him. He would not say it if it were not true.

"The hobby is a funny marriage of the emotional (music), and the technical (audio). We tend to want to feel that science has explanations for just about anything. We want to be the masters of out universe. We are far from being masters. Those funny little flesh saucers on the side of your head, and the super-computer it is attached to, is far more sensitive than any tool that science has come up with yet."

I agree completely. When I think about how little the average person knows about how even the most common component operates, I mean the science and technology. People just want to use stuff, not understand all the details. And I am in that camp. I don't really understand CD players. And I am not alone. :) I guess hearing wire is the audio equivalent of 'dark matter'.

"Add to this the fact that the subject at hand (music) is one that deals with human emotion, and is it any wonder that tempers fly?"

I don't think the 'emotion' comes from the love of music or the love of equipment. I shout, all cd player sound the same, all amps sound the same, wire cannot be heard. And notice how different people react. most don't feel it's worth responding, some try to educate the poor lost soul, with respect and understanding. :) Some beg to disagree, and move on. And some go Ballistic. I mean crazy!! Those are the ones worth further study! hahhahahaha It's not about the music, or the equipment!! It's just that some have more invested in their systems than just time and money.

"I encourage you to be less close minded about these folks' experiences; you will learn much as a result, and enjoy music (which you seem to care about) on a much deeper level."

I value their experiences. And I don't think I'm closed minded. I accept all facts. But in the end it's not that important. I wish I had never mentioned wire. Just got a lot of people mad and upset and made me the village idiot of audiogon. Love music more than I do now??? hmmmmmm maybe :)

one other thing, I always have said I have no experience in high-end audio. Meaning I don't own the type of equipment that is common on this site. Hell, I don't even recognize most of the brand names. But I have been involved in audio almost my entire life. Or more precisely, recorded music. That's a more accurate term.

thanks for the post
It's only audio

To Tubegroover & Frogman:

Is this an exampls of what you mean by learning to listen? I would appreciate your comments. Read the entire exchange.
Thanks

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1306127340