Anyone listen to Zu Audio's Definition Mk3?


Comparisons with the 1.5s and the others that came before? Getting the itch; again......
128x128warrenh
No doubt the Spatial Black Hole has its benefits, and I know it can mitigate acoustic anomalies in very troublesome rooms, which it sounds like you, Spirit, have had to cope with. That was a good suggestion Sean offered.

But before the wider audience begins to think this sort of thing is necessary -- yet another box -- two things are worth keeping in mind. First, in decades of listening to both live and recorded music, I've yet to hear any of it in an acoustically perfect room. And when I've heard a "perfect room" like an anechoic chamber, treated-to-the-hilt listening room, or an engineered recording studio, it didn't sound much like music the way it's actually experienced, though the sound might have been beguiling for reasons other than realism. On the other hand I've heard two rooms that were perfectly convincing for listening to music, and neither were free of anomalies, including audible nodes and standing waves.

The two best "rooms" I've ever heard were 1/ Symphony Hall in Boston. I had a share of season tickets for 10 years when I lived there. It ain't perfect, but it's exceedingly natural, involving and satisfying to hear music performed there. The second "musically perfect" room I've heard was a family room on the first floor of a large Victorian house on the shores of Spy Pond in Arlington, Massachusetts. It wasn't a house I lived in. It happened to be dimensioned to nearly the same proportions as Symphony Hall. Otherwise it was just an untreated family room with normal furnishings, and a combination of large glass windows on two walls, a large fireplace on one long wall, and a shortwall of in-build bookshelves and cabinetry. The thing about that room was "any* combination of gear sounded not merely good but sensational in it. A receiver with a pair of $400 speakers sounded like $30,000 worth of gear, regardless of audible nodes. A friend owned the house and we made a project out of trying to make the room sound bad by installing the most objectionable hifi gear would could find. No avail. Throw it your worst -- that room made everything sound golden.

If you have a dedicated listening room and you want to hone it, have at it. Yup, the room is the big number in the equation of hi-fi. The Black Hole is a one-trick pony tackling a sliver of the problem. But then go out to listen to live music, and think about what you hear, how hearing it in compromised space isn't eliminating your enjoyment, and then go back and question whether your hifi optimization might be creating a more synthetic sound than you intended. Maybe, maybe not.

Agreed, it's absolutely true that sorting out the lowest octave's affects in your room has disproportionate benefits, and the Black Hole may be just the ticket if you have space for it or otherwise are willing to live with its presence. But if you don't have space or aren't willing to accommodate it for whatever reason, and you upgrade to Def4, you will find that the newer speaker excites the room much less, more evenly loads the room with its bass output, and generally reduces unfavorable room/speaker interaction. My moderate bass piling at high SPLs with Def2 is tamed and virtually eliminated with Def4.

The sub-bass user controls are not so simple as Def2's single level control but not so bewilderingly interactive as to cause endless twiddling. The tunability is logical and manageable, IMO. The sub driver is pretty stiff when new, so Sean gave me notice it will take some time to play in. Whereas Def2's level control offered equal gain boost and cut, with most people on setup starting with the sub level control at its midpoint -- 12 o'clock -- and then backing off a bit to perhaps 11 o'clock or boosting a bit to perhaps 1 o'clock, the expectation with Def4 is that cut is the more likely scenario, so in most rooms taking in brand new Def4s, you'll start out with the level control at 9 or 10 and back it off as the driver plays in and becomes more efficient. So I'm still at that beginning stage for level and it's spot-on. The low pass filter hinge frequency is set at 45Hz, the PEQ at 31Hz, and phase is set at 0 shift. I have no complaints but I expect to tweak these settings as the 12" driver plays in and limbers up.

Despite Def4's truly full range, I have the fewest resonance anomalies of any speaker I've heard in the room, and that includes well above the bass range too. So whatever problems you might have now with Def2 are going to be mitigated by Def4, *possibly* to the point of irrelevance.

Last, I dug further in the cabinet differences between Def2 and Def4. The front baffle is immensely stronger on Def4 than Def2, both because the further-apart spacing of the FRDs leaves more material in place at the juncture of three drivers, and (more important) the large compression tweeter and its lens form a stressed, compressing, rigid member that seriously boosts the rigidity of the front baffle at what would normally be its weakest area in an FRD-T-FRD arrangement. This is a major factor in further reducing front baffle talk from the levels reached in Def2 compared to Def1.5. Then, what you can't see is that to further drain the FRD's frame-radiated energy away from the baffle into the interior of the superstructure, each FRD's isolation chamber has an interior front-to-rear taper formed by interior side plates that are cleated into the front/side panels' mitre join, and angled inward by 15 degrees, then fastened into the rear panel. This nearly eliminates side panel talk highly evident in Def1.5 and much attenuated in Def2, plus drains the FRD energy into the rest of the cabinet where it is then steeply damped by the rigid aluminum plinth that bears the rest of the mass of the speaker.

Phil
Phil, what other wire have you demoed in your system? In audio, hearing is believing. I know Glory has performed extensive experiments with wire, conditioning, amplification, and sources in addition to hearing other Zu based systems, and his experience has been consistent: the Zus are not impervious to associated gear. System resolution may also play a role in discerning wire changes. There is a significant differrence between a set of 845 monos and an ASR in terms of noise floor. The ASR is a better microscope.

Your comments about rooms are spot on IMO. Overdamped and synthetic sounding is the norm. Older homes with vaulted, parabolic ceilings and certain concert halls do a better job propagating ambient energy.
Some interesting assertions here:

>>SET amps are good for what they do but there are other amps that from top to bottom will out run them. <<

Bring me one.

There are a LOT of SET amp choices but they aren't all equally good. You don't have to go all the way to an Audio Note Ongaku. Until you specifically hear an Audion silver content Black Shadow (845 SET) or Golden Dream (300B PSET) monoblock pair on Defintion 4, you won't know whether anything allegedly SOTA can meet or exceed it. People who have heard this next to ARC REF seris, Dartzheel, Nagra, etc. who prefer the Audion aren't compromising for SET. So, sure, at any given point of time maybe there's something new that beats a stellar SET amp on a Zu crossoverless speaker. Could be. But no push-pull tube amp at any price has shown me ability to hide its crossover grunge. No SS amp at any price has shown the holistic tone of highly developed SET. But I'm open to the discovery.

>>I have found a huge upgrade in Footers by Equarack/Stillpoint Ultra under the Def2 that transforms the sound of the speaker.<<

Definitely easy to accept. Foundations are inflential on resonance management. The effects are specifically unpredictable dependent on other system, room and resting surface factors but it's certainly worth investigation to determine the right upgrade for your environment.

>>...but if you have the Def2 with the new Nano drivers and SOTA gear you just might have better tunes than the Def4 owners with lesser gear.<<

Look, I'm the last person to push people into premature upgrades or to encourage upgrades beyond an individual's ability to spend. Def2 by any measure remains an excellent speaker and plenty of people with more expensive but less capable speakers today would be thrilled with it, along with people who can suddenly buy Definition architecture on the used market at an accessible price.

But until you hear how large the improvements are in Def4 over Def2, the sentiment that Def2 with state-of-the-art gear and a nano-drivers upgrade will be "better" than Def4 with lesser gear, is uninformed conjecture. At some level of comparison, sure. But consider that I and others have noted that CDs are more listenable and enjoyable on Def4 than on Def2, despite Def4 being more revealing in every way, and you can see that the listenability quotient applies as well to modest amps, modest sources, modest cables, modest analog. The smooth extension and spatial openness of the supertweeter plus the surprisingly upgraded bass definition, discipline, room loading and clarity have profound effects on your perception of imaging, midrange performance and tonal engagement.

Somewhere in the mix of SOTA gear on Def2s vs more modest gear in Def4 the proposition might become tenable, and certainly in past Zu speakers I'd have agreed. The equalization in performance between fab gear in Def2 v. acceptable gear in Def4 isn't the slam-dunk given you'd imagine, IMO, which I illustrated to myself a couple of weeks ago. My Quad II push-pull amps designed in 1951 sound on my Def4s superior to my 4X the cost 845 silver content SET amps driving Def2s, but the same 845 SET amps on Def4s blow away all comers thus far and the Quads, good as they are, can't compete.

If you have Def2s and need to stick with them for the forseeable future, be confident you still have a genre-defining speaker that can satisfy you for years to come, especially with Zu's willingness to sell you nano drivers to install in them. Just don't listen to a Def4 until you're prepared to buy them. Or send your Def2s back to become Def3s, to get yourself halfwat way there.

Phil
Agear,

You wrote "Zus are not impervious to associated gear." That's certainly correct and if anything I wrote was inferred by others to mean otherwise, I certainly didn't intend it. I've lost count of all the cables types I've heard on my Zu systems over the past seven years I've owned Zu speakers, let alone all the cables I've ever heard. But I'll mention a few that bracket the discussion: JPS Aluminata, Audience, 47 Labs OTA, Kimber, Audioquest Everest, Zu Variel, Ibis, Event, Mission. For the moment, let's stick to speaker cables.

I'll also add that I have heard an ASR amp on Definition 2, and while I understand why that brand's amplification is well regarded, it's not an amp I consider musically convincing. It has a lower noise floor than top tier 845 SET amps, though my Audion amps aren't noisier enough that their noise floor is obscuring to the point of allowing the ASR to reveal anything I can't hear via the tube amps for that reason. The ASR is a "better microscope" than the 845, but not a better microscope than my Audion Golden Dream PSET with its high silver content, including in the OTs. Certainly it's possible that a given listener prefers something akin to the ASR amplification over what I listen to, and certainly the complementary or compensatory properties I would want from cable would be affected by the amp I listen to. When I want to hear cable contributions, I aurally dissect using the Golden Dream amps first.

In the compass points of cable in the examples I've mentioned above, there are several design approaches. JPS prioritizes noise elimination and shielding through brute force material density and mass. Audience emphasizes time domain. 47 Labs emphasizes coherence and speed. Kimber emphasizes RF rejection and magnetic behaviors. Audioquest strives for transparency. Zu seeks coherence and balance. Auditorium targets convincing tonality.

Some of these cable choices are mass-intensive. Others eschew mass every way they can. There's a long-running debate about the sonic benefits of very low mass connectors vs. metal-intensive termination. So in brief terms, JPS Aluminata is quiet and good at preserving and presenting dimension, but I don't have significant cable-induced noise, so everything is pretty quiet anyway. I did not find any collapse of dimensioning going from JPS to Zu Ibis, but I did find the JPS to be less dynamic, certainly smooth but not as fast as Ibis. More to the point, it wasn't as coherent and resolving as the 47 Labs OTA, which counterintuitively uses single-strand conductors. But I can understand how the JPS can be heard as fleshing out a leaner audio device chain. Of the cables I mentioned, the various Audioquests had no advantage over anything else, so set all AQ aside for this discussion. Auditorium 23 cables are the most reliably musical regardless of source material of this group. Kimber never makes a misstep but it doesn't equal the best of the group in tone, transparency, resolution or dimensioning. It's a safe choice. Audience is incisive and precise. Zu delivers total balance with the silver content cables matching anyone's resolution. In some significant properties of sheer musicality, I liked Auditorium and 47 Labs best, and both emphasize low mass, particularly at termination. I would take either over JPS. I came back to Zu Ibis (and I can equally endorse Event, which is actually more forgiving than Ibis) for its well-rounded ability to be exceptional on speed, bursty dynamics, tonal coherence and event coherence.

I've tried many more cables than this, including Cardas and Nordost, and I haven't even gotten into ICs and power cords. But there's another dimension to the discussion. How much money should be allocated to cables in a system, or how much is needed for the system to be musically convincing?

All of the speaker cables I mention above were quite good on Definitions, in varying ways. None made the system unpleasant to listen to. But with a cable as good as Ibis or Event, I can drive larger positive deltas in musical performance by upgrading elsewhere with the thousands of dollars not spent on cable if Zu, Auditorium and 47 Labs are chosen instead of JPS Aluminata or the upper line AQs, for example. And if you prefer the more moderate cost lines, then standing pat on cables to put money into other areas or just buy more music, or pursue another interest in life can be the better choice. I can spend $6000 on speaker cables, but I won't if the results aren't compelling. I haven't heard compelling from JPS, as an example. I've heard "good" that didn't win against alternatives. But someone else like Glory who may hear differently or whom has different criteria for being convinced of a system's musical thruthfulness might prioritize his resources differently.

But I repeat that with Def4 restoring the Speakon connector for B3 geometry pass-through to the amp, the benefits of leveraging that via a Zu cable are significant and not exactly matched by other good cables that can't continue B3 to the amp output terminals.

Phil

231 writes,

It's more important to preserved Zu's B3 all the way to the amp than it is to futz with alternate cables, for getting the most out of Def4.

Did that and you are wrong! Your writings will appeal to the budget minded Zu owners but for those who are wanting the best sound out of our Zu speakers we will trash your thoughts.

Your ideas on gear and P&P reminds me of a person owning a high $$$ sports car that can not take his car on the race track but has been limited to driving on city roads in a 45 MPH zone. Your noisy 845/211/300b will do 0/60 in 10 seconds and take turns like my old '65 Mustang. Have at it if you will but I want my Def2 on the race track and not just do city driving.

Gear/room means everything from the wall to the room where your  speakers are placed. Your speakers are only telling you how you have done on building the rest of your system.

Truth is not found in  huge amounts of written words on paper with ideas that are one's opinions. Truth is in the hearing and your take on wire is not what I heard to be true by a long shot in my system.

Have fun with your city driving LoL.