ARC-Ref210 vs ARC-Ref610T at medium levels ??

Hi Tdaudio,
thanks for your input. You are right - so many tubes are a heating source. Since my listening room is downstaires in the basement it tends to be (too) cool anyway, so a few degrees more might be welcome... Nevertheless for all the other reasons I tend to go for the 210 anyway, accepting that the 610 might be slightly better,
as long as they are not dramatically better (especially at low/medium levels). But I will check Dave's opinion on that topic as well.

Hi Dev,
thanks as well for sharing your personal experience. It is good to hear that all these components are great (and reliable). This is why I am stuck with ARC - I like the sound, and all pieces I have owned during the upgrade cycles have been really good - and I too never had any issue with one of them. The only question remaining is: which one is best? I have a Ref-5 preamp at home since last weekend and could compare it with my Ref-2MkII in identical environments. And although the Ref-5 is clearly the better one, I have to admit the also the Ref2 is a
really great preamp still!

Hi Rtn1, yes I have been so smitten with my Vac pre over any others I have owned or had in my set-up that these darn amps have been on my mind constantly. The issue being the crazy list price of addmision 72K and not being able to hear prior along with the waiting periode due to the work to manufacture such one you commit. Time being given, next year late Feb. so we will see. I read you went from the big Karan mono's to the Pass and are now in the mode of cable exspearimentation.

Hi Ozatschek, I also enjoy ARC. I actually owned the same pre Ref-2 MK2 for many years and enjoyed it but then moved onto the Ref3 which I owned for many years also,at one point I compared the Ref5 to the Ref3 and the Ref3 was the sweethart of the deal. Pairing up the the Ref5 with either amps you mention would be most interesting but when I owned the 600 MK2's they are big and I found it nicer having the 610T's being a tower design, my preference between the two and the tubes being exsposed allowed for better ventilation. If you could read into my thoughts I feel it's like driving a car which has lots of power on tap and when called for it's there, you are cruzing arround effortlessly and when you push the pedal down look out, to me it's like listening to music it's so effortless and over all just sounds more relaxed, better flow working better.
But in the end it will be your choice so enjoy your journey.

Hi Dev, I know what you mean. This is why I drive a Mercedes 12 cylinder, a Bentley and an old Rolls Royce. They drive more relaxful at lower speeds, you dont hear them, yet you know: if you need power, it is simply there, silent and mightyful. Its the same with big tube amps. I dont need them due to playing at maximum levels all day long, I want them because the low/mid levels sound so great, they dont mean any effort to such systems. Interesting that you once prefered the Ref3 over the Ref5.
I never heard the Ref3 (because everybody says the Ref5 is better anyway). I just can say that the complete sound "image" differs enormously between the Ref2 and the Ref5: when I heard the Ref5 the first time (it already had 300 hours on the tubes, so reasonably burned in, no excuse there) I was close to being disappointed. The sound quality was excellent, but the Ref2 was much more direct, wormer, unbalanced in a nice way. And the Ref2 has a bit more bass level at the lowest end. Having "corrected" the bass level (by adjusting the subwoofers differently) I concentrated on the mere sound differences. The Ref5 is much more precise, first impression is a bit analytical (as far as this can go with a tube preamp). The soundstage is wider and deeper and seems to be a bit more away from my listening position. It is more neutral, better balanced (in terms of voice vs instruments). The voices and instruments are a bit clearer, everyting seems to be better "seperated", less "mixed up". But it does not miss the ARC/tube sound as well. Once getting used to the Ref5 sound, the Ref2 sounds less clearer, the bass too whoppy, and the whole sound picture unbalanced (more bass, voice determines more) and somehow more "mixed up".
But I am not sure if the Ref5 would always win against the Ref2 if someone has only limited time and can only do a short comparison. The Ref2 is easier to adopt when hearing it the first time (especially when upgrading).
Anyway, I am now adict to the Ref5, so the preamp decision is done. The issue with the power amps is simply that is it much less practical to test them at home, simply because the transportation is a project by its own. Also switchin from one amp to another one is an issue of cable lengthm stand position,... With a 13kg/27lbs preamp that
is easy... I usually try to have components fro ARC that are from the same "generation", so I would prefer the 210s for that reason to the 300/600. They also have fewer tubes, need less input power,... Nevertheless the 610 still might be an intersting option. I will try to find an opportunity to compare them one to one (even if is not in MY listening environment, but at least it should be the SAME for amps). Thanks for all your inputs! Enjoy the music!!

Hi Ozatschek, nice cars I also have a couple of Mercedes AMG models and really like Bentley and Rolls.

I did not mean to come across the I prefered the Ref3 over the Ref5 just that if you were looking at the cost factor the Ref3 is a real deal although now that the Ref5 has been out for a while the used price has come down. When listening too the two I would not say "BEST" but differ just as you refer to your Ref2. Audio in general is like that, really going to come down to your preference, rest of your components etc.

Hi Dev, good to know that you did like the Ref5! But you are right: the price difference became rather small: a
one-year old Ref5 with 300-600 hours on the tubes and still 2 years of warranty is approx 7.5k€ (some 10kUS$), and a 3 to 5 year old Ref3 with much more hours is around 5k€ (some 7kUS$). I think the price difference between the two models is not so much - and it will stay in that order of magnitude, so once I upgrade to the Ref-Anniversary (oh, I have to sell the Royce...) I will get more refund for the Ref5....