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Attention Scientists, Engineers and Na-s

Isn't it funny how timing works. With all the different discussions on proving this, show me fact on that and the psycho acoustical potential of the other thing an article comes along with the same topics and some REAL potential answers. I received my newest copy of "The Audiophile Voice" Vol.7, Issue1 today and on page 16 is an article written by David Blair and Bill Eisen titled "In The Matter Of Noise". The article focuses on disturbance noise but has some reference to thermal noise, low frequency noise and shot noise, and our ability to measure these noises with the equipment of today. We have measured noise as low as 6x10 to the power of -5, or approximately a few cycles per day. We have also found through laboratory testing that the human brain is stimulated with frequencies from just above 0Hz to just below 50kHz. U.S. Department of Defense documents also show studies of low frequency activity below measurable levels and there various affects.
The article then begins to talk about out of band (hearing) noise and in band noise produced by our electronic equipment and the potential of these noises effecting our sound system. The assumptions are that "disturbance noises rob our systems of dynamics, low-level information, tonal purity and stage depth". These effects are for the most part overlooked and misunderstood by the scientific communities. They say they think that our speakers being hit with "massive quantities of R.F.I. are affected" A very good quote referring to power filters was "Effective noise control imposes no sonic tradeoffs or downside." How often have the discussions here on Audiogon focused on what they are doing? A very interesting comment was that Teflon is capable of carrying 40-Kilovolts static charge, and the industry is touting this as a great insulator for audio signals, that's scarey!
Now I bring this to light because I believe the view of the "Scientists and Engineers" here on Audiogon is so narrow that they are failing to see the exciting challenges in front of them. If all these noises do exist, which they do, and they can be transmitted and received through our systems, isn't possible, just maybe feasible that the insulation of our wires, the casing of our dedicated lines the size and shape of the conductor could, just maybe effect the sound? Isn't it even possible that forces set off by electrical components could be interfering in some so far unmeasured and inaudible way affecting the sound. Do you all test within the full spectrum of 0Hz to 50Khz for every possible situation? Or is it possible, just ever so small of a chance that you are overlooking a whole new science yet unexplored. Doesn't that, even slightly excite your little scientific fossils?
Man if I was younger, healthier and wanted a challenge. This is a career if you'd just climb out from behind you oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzer and see the world is indeed still spinning, and yes, it is 2001. Remember how 30 years ago 2001 was going to be so exciting. What the hell have the Scientist, Engineers and Na-sayers who tote there stuff here on Audiogon done for the advancement of science. Anyone, have any of you really broken through! J.D.
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paulwp
585 posts
 
Detlof, Im troubled by your response to the ABX "results" on the website Jostler referred you to. Without knowing the experience, listening skills or hearing acuity (word?) of the listeners, where they were, or what they listened to and what playback source, I still wouldnt be surprised that they couldnt tell any differences listening through the headphone jack of a Bryston 2B. Of course, if you read the other results, you will "learn" that so long as you are in 16 bit and solid state country, wire is wire, bits are bits and watts are watts. So sell all of your equipment except your speakers, go down to your local discount emporium and buy a cheap cd player and a receiver with enough power to drive your speakers.

In my experience, most cables Ive heard are very difficult to tell apart. So difficult I cant say with confidence that they are different. But with some, I have no doubts at all. The differences are in details that dont come through headphones or headphone jacks; palpable imaging, image specificity, layering. I dont know if these things can be measured at all. And Im sure my brother, who has no interest in this subject, would hear no differences at all.

I use inexpensive cables, even cheap ones, because (1) I'm cheap and would prefer all cables to sound alike, (2) the ones I use are good enough, (3) my playback system is affected more by my listening rooms and placement restrictions than by any wire, and (4) I'm not sure the differences I hear aren't caused by subtle changes in barometric pressure when I get up and down to change the cables.

So, I dont think cables are that important, but the ABX results on that website do nothing for me at all.
dudleydog63's avatar
dudleydog63
105 posts
 
Paulwp: First of all, the ABX results posted for speaker cables did not use headphones. Granted, most of these sorts of tests use small samples, and it's possible that they just used people with "untrained" ears. But often (including those cable tests, I believe) the subjects were people who at least *thought* they were experienced listeners. At any rate, there is nothing stopping anyone from assembling a panel of the most accomplished audiophiles in the world and conducting a similar test that will demonstrate, once and for all, that one 12-gauge copper wire does not sound like another. Note, however, that no one has done so yet.

As for your own experience, please remember that no one claims that all wires sound alike. (That is a canard foisted on us objective types by people who can't seem to muster arguments against the statements we do make.) So it's quite possible that in the cases where you do hear differences, the cables themselves (and not, say, the barometric pressure) are really delivering a different sound.

Detlof: Of course I do, but the feeling usually passes after 24 hours or so. That's when my wife gives me back my credit cards.
paulwp
585 posts
 
Remarkable.

No way to respond without seeming sarcastic. I'm sure Detlof didnt think I was suggesting that speaker cables were tested with headphones. I dont even know how you'd do that.

Lots of people believe and argue that all interconnects sound the same. As far as speaker wire goes, lots of people believe and argue that if the gauge is sufficient for the length of the cable, all copper wire, stranded, solid or whatever sounds the same. Im not sure if many people claim that copper and silver are indistinguishable, but some do.

So, if I hear a difference between 12 gauge copper stranded and 11 gauge Audioquest or 9 or 13 gauge Kimber or doubled twisted 14 gauge Romex in lengths for which 14 gauge should be more than adequate, am I hearing real differences in the wire or is it indigestion?

Oh, Detlof, if you read this, is Mogami 3082 marketed where you are? If so, what does it cost, and do you know anyone who has used it?
detlof
1,899 posts
 
Paul, nope, it isn't and I don't know any Mogami owners. Your thoughts on the webside in question parallel mine, however it got me thinking all the same and Jostler well put. My wife used to take the cards away for good. Regards!
dudleydog63's avatar
dudleydog63
105 posts
 
Sorry about the speaker cable thing, Paul. My brain must have gone on the fritz for a second, there. As for what explains the differences you hear among similar cables, your presumption of difference is definitely a factor, but it's not the only one. Connection quality may be an issue, as well as levels. And as those ABX results show, it takes a very small difference in levels to make an audible difference (and at those levels, you won't even notice that one is louder than the other).
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