Well Gentlemen. I have decided to go on my own with a slight modification. My instinct to hunt( as Stltrains says about man) and my desire to know the truth forced me to do a little experiment. Tonight, I very carefully took out the new output caps and bypasses. I replaced them with the original upgraded Hovland 4.7uf caps from before the upgrade. The system has been playing now for about an hour. So how does it sound, you ask? The "breath of life" is back. The midrange now has that palpable realness that I've been missing. The soundstage now has normal front to back depth. Highs are once again clean and extended and the bass is as powerful as it was. The power supply mods that Joseph did seems to make an improvement. I get a slight increase in volume, but the dynamic differences are still realistic in portraying music. I'm sure that the new wire harnesses are also contributing to a cleaner sound as well. I'm not sure why this small change makes so much of a difference in my system but I'll guess and say that it was a combination of an impedance matching issue with my amps along with some phase irregularities that I mentioned in my previous post caused by the bypass caps. All I know is that I'm a happier guy tonight and my ears are pleased with the musical portrayal. |
I guess I have a different preamp than anyone now. It is no longer a TP 2.0n version nor is it a new TP 2.1n. I have affectionately renamed my preamp the in-between model, the new TP 2.05n. Must... go... listen. Music is beckoning. |
Bill,
I think 140 hours on my upgrade was enough break-in for me to know if the caps were right for my system. Regarding the tube locations. Looking down from the front, starting from left to right is location 1-4. 1 and 3 are the most critical to the sound. I might be up to the wee hours myself listening this weekend. The fun is back. Enjoy. |
Grant,
I agree that Blackgate caps take an unusually lengthy time to break in. Some have said the larger values take up to 600 hours or more. Most of your polyprops, metal films, oil impregnated, etc. take much less time. Speaking of Blackgates, I have read that the manufacturer has stopped making them. I know that Joseph uses them in some of his tuner mods. He put some in my tuner mod. |
Thanks, guys, for the well wishes. I feel like I'm getting get well wishes after my near-death situation. Now that I have the old Hovlands back in, the phasey sound is gone and the sound my ears are familiar with is back, to a certain extent. Having the preamp now on for about 24 hours, the sound seems a bit dark for me, but that could be other issues. I'm going to just listen to music this weekend and try to relax and release some of the stress that has built up for me these last couple of weeks. I'm sorry to have stirred up a hornet's nest for everyone, but I'm a perfectionist and I want my hobby of musical listening to be the best possible. |
Hi Sang,
I tried several value V-caps, both the Teflon and oil-impregnated in different values as bypass and none sounded right. All bypasses on the outputs caused this "shelving" effect where the sound lost its wholeness and took on the characteristics of the cap used as the bypass. Both Joseph and Victor have good systems and I'm sure good ears, but my system preferred the 2.0n version in the end. Your mileage might vary. Please don't think that I'm a troll or naysayer. I was one of the early buyers of the TP 2.0n preamp and if you'll peruse the threads, you'll see that I was always there to champion the work and genius of the "Master" Mr. Chow. I feel my praise of his preamp has played a small, but significant role in helping others to decide to try and now enjoy his preamp. |
Sang,
I just wanted to clarify that I didn't try any bypasses on the new 2.1n output caps, only on various caps in my 2.0n version. |
Here is an e-mail response from Victor to a question I asked him regarding a few things:
"We voice changes to Joseph's components whenever we can or feel we need to over three speaker systems--Joseph's Sophias, Cedar's Coincidence, and my ESS Transars.
When Joseph and I A-B'ed the new caps vs the Hovlands on the 2.1 through Joseph's Wilson Sophias, we felt the Hovlands had a narrower bandwidth (less top and bottom and a bit more forward in the midrange), were definitely less open (that is, more compressed), and less transparent (more veiled). Because they captured musical texture and harmonics less well and the attacks were less clear, the Hovlands were smoother sounding, but to our ears at a very great cost. Joseph visited Cedar and they conducted an A-B of the new changes to the 2.1 (minus the later power supply changes) vs the equivalent 2.0. Cedar and Joseph both felt the new caps etc. made a dramatic improvement over the old. Had the changes been felt to be subtler, we would have voiced over my speakers to confirm, but the feeling of all of us over the two speaker systems was that the improvement was dramatic and not subtle.
Joseph's Sophias and Cedar's Consonance speakers are three ways. We prefer to voice with three ways because of the inherent limitations of two ways. Designing a two way speaker is very difficult because the crossover point is usually at or near the point at which the ear is most sensitive--1000 Hz-2500 Hz. This means phase anomalies play a critical role, and also this is the point at which woofers sometimes become a little more ragged and tweeters are operating at the limits of their low frequency range. To minimize the possiblity of nasal elements occuring when the human voice is played, two way speaker designers often design their crossovers to slightly de-emphasize these frequencies--not greatly but slightly, maybe a couple of dB. The old Advent speakers which were such popular best sellers, had a very pronounced but narrow hole in the midrange at the crossover point of a few dB. But the designers counted on the human ear's ability to fill in gaps to compensate for this. (I enclose an essay I wrote for Joseph on Audio Listening which touches on this phenomenon.) Nevertheless if one compared an Advent with a quality three way speaker, one could distinctly hear the hole in the midrange at about 1500 Hz.
You refer to the "breath of life" in your posts. Much goes into the "breath of life" but certainly midrange "presence" is a significant component of it. If you have a two way speaker, and if it, as do so many, has a slight dip in the midrange (not a great dip, just a modest carefully contoured depression along those critical frequencies to prevent any hint of honkiness or a nasal quality to vocals), you might welcome the Hovlands slight midrange emphasis--more than welcome it, need it to give you that "presence" so much a part of the breath of life.
Having committed irrevocably to the new caps, we now needed to listen very, very carefully to what we had now created.
This led to our feeling that the extended frequency response of the new caps was exposing high output breakup at crescendoes. To counteract this, we made the power supply changes that increased the voltage. The result of these changes was to increase dramatic contrasts, to supply extra reserves of power when crescendoes occurred, and thus to end the high output break up which we had found objectionable. It also had the effect of "softening" or "subduing" the high end and with it the objectionable edginess, and to all our ears it did this without rolling off the high end. What I'm trying to convey is that it is common for even careful listeners to confuse the added brightness caused by various forms of ringing and loss of high frequency control with extended bandwidth. We did not alter the bandwidth, or the frequency response, only the break up and edginess, but subjectively to listeners who are noticing this subliminally, this comes through as a softer or subdued top end.
The "warmth" or "darkness" you hear is not in the caps you mention, but inherent in the power supply changes. To get back to the old TP 2.0n, you would need to sacrifice all the gains of the power supply mod, which gains are extensive in our opinion. Changing the value of those caps will not do it.
I will ask Joseph if there is a simple way to add a little emphasis to your top end. Meanwhile, please give us a chance to think through these issues before you make any changes to the unit. Despite our asking you not to make changes, it seems you made changes and could not wait until we told you how to make them in a way that did not affect the traces. Sherod, we try to respond as rapidly as we can, and I think we do a pretty good job. I don't think from the time you put your last question re the Hovlands to us until we responded was even five days. That shouldn't be too long to wait.
We will try to respond to this new request as soon as we can, but what you want to accomplish is not easy because so many elements went into the changes you hear. Isolating one from the other is not easy. We will try to have an answer for you within a few days.
If you want to post any part of this answer on the Discussion Forum, feel free to do so."
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Just to keep things into perspective, I am posting my initial e-mail to Victor to which Victor responded in the post I made above:
Victor,
When Joseph initially tried these new output caps and found that he liked them, I'm trying to put things into perspective: at this point you both decided that you liked them. Did you decide then that the power supply needed to be improved to accommodate the new caps or you just wanted to make the power supply larger to improve the preamp in general? I'm trying to figure out at what point did you decide to make a change to the new 2.1 version and why. I'm curious what you said on your recent post on the Audiogon thread about when the power supply was increased from 100V to 140V you noticed increased dynamic swings, yet the top end became soft. I'm trying to understand what this "softness" means. I never felt that the top end was ever soft in my 2.0n. Also, I noticed that on the mainboard with the tubes, in the front of the board are four electrolytic caps. Next to these are smaller film caps. As I recall, the value on the 2.0n smaller caps were .22uf, and they are now .47uf. Can you tell me what this cap value change did to the circuit? The reason I'm asking is that now that I've reverted back to the solo Hovlands by themselves in the outputs, I'm getting a little darker or warmer sound than before. I'm trying to figure out what in the upgrade could be causing this. Basically ,in a nutshell, what I'm trying to do is revert back to the 2.0n which I had before Joseph made his upgrades yet keep key things that would benefit the original configuration. Please be rest assured that I don't intend to make changes to the preamp that would cause damage to the traces to void any warrantee. I'm grateful that Joseph repaired some traces for me during his upgrades as an act of goodwill. Thanks for your help.
Best, Sherod |
Rx8man,
You might get a faster response from Victor by e-mailing him directly. I also am waiting for an answer from him as regards to my situation. At this time, my main system is shut down. Thank goodness I still have my bedroom system for some music. |
I just had an interesting e-mail from Victor. It looks like Joseph might be focussing on either a high-powered SET amp at 30-55 Watts or a high-powered push-pull 150 watts. This should be fun to see what he comes up with. |
Btstrg,
While I am waiting for my re-build( reconvert back to 2.0n version) kit from Joseph, I am sending my amps back to VAC to check and scope for factory specs. |
Well, I just had to get in that 700th post. We're slowly gaining on the Supratek thread. I am, unfortunately, without my main system for a few weeks, but I'm hoping to have it up and running and enjoying my music once again soon. I have e-mailed Victor privately to congratulate them on the new review of the line stage and phono section. I am particularly anxious to read the upcoming review from the Dagogo site. I hope that Victor will keep us abreast of this review as well as Joseph's progress with his new amp. |
Yes, Stltrains. I agree with Gammajo in that a wood floor with a large area rug can work just fine. It will, in general, add a bit more liveliness to the room, which might be either a nice addition or not to the sound. Make sure that the first reflection points off your speakers are addressed. If you like the sound fine as is with the new floor arrangement, then enjoy the music. If it adds too much liveliness( i.e. slap echos,etc) then you might need to adjust the other room acoutrements with some diffusion/dampening. Have fun and enjoy. I look forward to hearing how the new AH interconnects sound for you. Just remember to give them some break-in time. |
Rja,
It appears that no one with Wadia amps has tried the AH preamp out with it. Perhaps you can get one for a free home trial and let us know how it sounds. |
Gentlemen,
This thread has become fairly quiet lately. Is everyone just enjoying their music so much that they don't have either the time or inclination to put in any comments? I would love to hear from new owners of the TP 2.1 or thoughts from anyone else who has upgraded from the 2.0 to the 2.1. My main system is still down. My VAC amps are still at the factory waiting for a check-up. I didn't realize until they received my amps that there was a two week back-up in the service department. I sure do miss the music. Even though I have my bedroom system running, it's just not the same. |
Rob,
Perhaps Joseph or Victor can answer your question best. All they told me, back when I was tube-rolling, was that locations 1 & 3 were the most critical for the sound. I would imagine that these are in the signal path. As to what locations 2 & 4 do, I can only take a layman's guess that they are for regulation. It's best to ask the "Master"( J. Chow) himself. |
David,
Welcome to the AH club. I'm curious what mods were done on the TP 2.0 version you auditioned. Also, since you had an opportunity to try the 2.0 version first, I would be interested in what your thoughts are after you've had the new 2.1 version in your system for a while. Enjoy the music and don't be a stranger. |
David,
I noticed that you're selling your entire main system as you're moving to Korea. I'm curious what system you are going to get to put your new TP 2.1 preamp in? |
Luis,
You are a funny guy. I don't shop until the day after Christmas when they have the 50% off sales. Just kidding, but my mother has always shopped this way to prepare for the next Christmas. It's a little early anyway for me to get into the holiday spirit. Maybe when Thanksgiving comes, I'll start humming and whistling the Christmas carols and get myself into the holiday mood. I also enjoy reading your enthusiastic posts as well. |
Hi Grant,
From a price comparison, it wouldn't be a fair comparison, however, a couple of guys have said that their TP 2.0 versions sounded better in their systems than a couple of preamps that retailed for $16,000.00 plus. I would love to hear your impressions of the Atma-sphere preamp paired with your VAC monoblocks, though. Are you getting a nice sound through your speakers that you're happy with? |
The V-caps(especially the Teflons) require a very long break-in. If you like the sound now, you're probably going to love it in a couple of more weeks. Enjoy your new system. |
Bill,
The power supplies of the VAC amps are so good that most conditioners that I've tried to plug them into have degraded their sound, just as you found. The only thing that benefitted my VAC amps are much better power cords and an Alan Maher Power Enhancer plugged into the same outlet. I'm curious why you decided to sell your VAC amps after such a short time with them. Did your speakers need more power? Are you looking for a different sound from the 300b's? The previous owner of my VAC amps sold them to me because they weren't enough power for his big Eggleston Andras. By the way, the VAC amps are very critical of the interconnects used from the preamp outputs. Thanks for reviving this thread. For a while there, I was wondering if the thread was dying a slow death. I still have my VAC amps at the factory getting them checked out. Hopefully I'll have them back soon to start enjoying my music once again. Let us know how your new 300B amps sound in your system. |
Bill,
I'm glad to see that you found some tube amps that work best in your system. Hopefully you'll keep them for a while and enjoy the music.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone !
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Hi Rob,
I'm curious why you ordered these Siemens Cca tubes and never used them. Did you buy them to put in the TP 2.0 preamp or for another preamp? |
Joe,
I don't recall reading the announcement, but I'd guess that the announcement was made earlier when Victor said that the upgrade cost would be increased an additional $75.00 due to the length of time needed for Joseph to complete the upgrades. |
Hi Sang,
Welcome to the AH preamp club. I hope you have many wonderful hours of musical enjoyment to come. I haven't posted lately because my VAC amps have been at the factory for almost six weeks now. I originally sent them back for a check-up, but apparently either during shipment to the factory or previously when the amps were shipped to me ( and I wasn't aware of it) one of the transformers broke loose from the chassis so they had to send it to a specialist to have it re-welded and spray painted. There was initially a two week queue before they could even look at the amps, but now there has been further delay due to the transformer welding job. While the amps are there, the tech is upgrading a few parts to improve on the sound as well as lower the noise level. I am hoping to have the amps back to me before Christmas so that I can once again enjoy my main system. Merry Christmas everyone. Have a safe and happy holidays. |
Here's a little Christmas video for you all:
http://badaboo.free.fr/merryxmas.swf
|
Yes Sang. The Fusion power cords, once broken in, do indeed give you a spiritual enlightenment. Well, folks. It is a new year. Hopefully a better one than last year. I just got my monoblocs back from VAC. Due to extreme mis-handling from our guys at Fedex, one of my transformers had to be re-welded. This took some time and while the amps were in the shop, the owner of VAC, Kevin Hayes, took the time to do a few circuitry upgrades with some better resistors. I just hooked everything back up a few hours ago and the sound is so much better than before. I currently have my preamp in the original 2.0n version, but after a while, I might re-try the 2.1n newer version. I have the parts diagram from Joseph to do this( simply taking out a couple of diodes and adding a couple of electrolytics, along with the new output caps). I am going to simply enjoy the exquisite sound I'm getting now over the weekend and maybe make a New Year's resolution that I'm going to cool it for a while with the upgrades and tweaks in my system and just enjoy the music. I wish all you fellow Audio Horizons component owners a very happy and prosperous new year. |
Wow, Joe! From one coast to another. Is this a job relocation? Oregon is a very beautiful State. I hope you find a home with the right listening room for your system, especially after designing your own there in N. Carolina. My daughter currently lives in Fayetteville, N.C. |
Thank you all for the best wishes. I realize how influential that I've been since I was one of the early buyers of Joseph's preamp. I am still feeling positive about Joseph and his work. Victor is also very loyal to Joseph and he is a very considerate and helpful person for AH. I will keep you all posted on my journey with the AH preamp. |
Pat,
I'm sorry to have made this upgrade issue so confusing. Actually there was nothing wrong with my amps. The damage they suffered was caused during the shipment from me to the factory. All VAC did was replace a few resistors to a little better and quieter ones; basically to prevent future noise issues. I did, however, have a problem with my speakers. After returning them to the factory in Canada, they found the mid-woofers to have both voice coils to be strained. They rebuilt them for no charge and what's amazing is the speakers had already gone past their guarantee coverage. What a great company Reference 3A is. I want to get a feel for the sound once again of the original 2.0n version and after a while, I will replace the parts required to upgrade to the 2.1 version for a final evaluation. I apologize to those who were either considering an upgrade or were considering buying a new 2.1 preamp and were unsure because of my posts. So far, I have been the "only" one who had issues( sonically) with my upgraded preamp. Everyone else has been very happy when they have upgraded. So maybe I had wax in my ears during that time or I was so stressed out that I wasn't focusing on my listening. Just remember that for those who are considering in trying out a new preamp, Audio Horizons still offers a money-back guarantee, so for those newcomers who have been sitting on the fence waiting to try a preamp in this price range, I say go for it and don't hold back. I would imagine that Joseph is very busy, so if you want to upgrade your 2.0 versions to the 2.1 version, you had better call Victor now to find out what the queue is for Joseph's schedule. Before I put back in the 2.1n upgrade, I am going to replace the original internal wiring harness as that's the only thing left for me to have the original version back as it was. As an experiment, I am going to hear for myself the difference that the wire harness alone has on the sound. Stay tuned for an update.
Now Pat, don't wait for me. You do the upgrade and let us all know what you think. And hurry up with your decision on the new speakers ( Sasons) that you will be getting. I hope that you and the wifey got what you wanted from Santa. |
I just wanted to add that after talking with Joseph and Victor over this last year and a half, I have come to the conclusion that not only are they both honest and sincere, they both have a strong love of music and both of them desire, like most of us audiophiles, in achieving the purist, most natural reproduction of that music through their audio systems. I really appreciate that. |
Pat,
I'm happy to hear that those Nuforce monos fed by the TP 2.0 pre are keeping you up late at night. If I had only three monitor speakers to choose from, I would have picked those same three that you did. I hope you can arrange a trial of each in your own system. Keep us posted. |
Here's an interesting thread you might find intriguing. read the posts by Stehno, new owner of the TP 2.1:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1198942394&read&3&4&
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I already know that it was you, Pat. You da man!! |
I've followed his rack building from the beginning. He makes some mighty fine looking racks. I see that some manufacturers are using his racks at the RMAF and CES. I know that Stehno has gone through quite a few outstanding preamps over the years and with his claim recently that the new AH TP 2.1 preamp is the best he's ever heard is great praise indeed. |
I have reverted back to the original TP 2.0n version. The older wire harness, although not quite as quiet, sounds much more natural than the new harness( at least in the TP 2.0n version). Regarding the tube choices, I have found that an early 1960 Siemens Cca with the grey plate to sound the best in the critical 1 and 3 locations. I want to experiment with some different versions/brands in the less critical 2 and 4 locations. In the meantime, I like some late 60's(?) Siemens A-frame E88cc in those locations for now. The combination gives me a very large soundstage with excellent depth. My next minor tweak will be to experiment with some copper shielding for the old wire harness. For now, I am back to my happy-go-lucky self. I am also happy to still be in the AH preamp family, although you may call me the black sheep of the family, if you wish. (o: |
The White Christmas video is one of my favorites. I never knew who sang it. Thanks for letting me know. Every Christmas, I e-mail this video to my family. It is my "signature" Christmas video. |
Stltrains,
I am glad to have played a role into helping you choose the AH preamp. I am happy now with the sound of my system. I am glad that you have a very nice system which you are enjoying as well. Let us know how those Lessloss cords work out for you. Enjoy the music, my friend. |
It is interesting how different connectors sound with different conductors. I am currently experimenting with an OCC copper conductor power cord using the new Oyaide P-004 and C-004 connectors. I also have one of Joseph's Premium power cords and am using the a FIM 303 male connector with it. Joseph uses the basic Wattgates on his cords. |
I would imagine that Uncle Pat is too busy enjoying his new monobloc amps. (o: |
Member Markwatkiss had one. Maybe he can explain the differences in more deatil:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1182023364&read&keyw&zzmodwright
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I still have the original 2.0n version and I'm very happy with it. I don't know how the added "B" version would sound. I'm sure someone will respond soon. It is interesting how this once active thread has suddenly died out. Maybe everyone is just too busy enjoying the music. Personally, I think you should get the new "n" version and let it break in for a couple of weeks and get a feel for its sound in your system. I would like to hear your impressions. |
Hello fellow AH TP 2.0/1 owners. This thread has been awfully quiet lately. I have been enjoying my original TP 2.0n preamp very much lately. I hope everyone has been well and enjoying their systems. Any new users care to share your experiences? How about current users with any new updates and experiences. I'm going to experiment with a few different power cords next week. I also had my vintage H/K tuner tweaked and aligned again and the NPR station here is sounding wonderful tonight. |
Actually, the stock market made a last minute recovery after being in the red all day and ended up for the day. Amazing with these rumors of already being in a recession, the stock market still goes through its daily roller coaster ride. |
Oddioo,
Since you have the "n" version on its way, enjoy it in your system for a while. Later on, if you feel the urge to go balanced with the bigger transformers in the nB version( remember that you'll need balanced interconnects) you can always upgrade at any time. Like I said, I'm perfectly content with the original 2.0n version. Also, if you hadn't done it yet, start at the beginning of this thread and read through its entirety. There're a lot of posts in there commenting on the different versions along with comparisons to other preamps. Hey, if the preamp doesn't work for your system you can always return it and give the Ultraverve a try. I'm not familiar with your Rogue monoblocks or your Dali speakers, so you might ask Joseph or Victor how they feel about the preamp's compatibility. Have fun. |
Mrjstark,
Are you comtemplating trying an AH preamp? If so, I'd be interested in hearing how it compares to your Granite preamp. |
I hate to see this thread dying out, so I'll post that I'm still enjoying my original TP 2.0n preamp. One thing that I never mentioned, for those fervently following this thread, is that when I originally downgraded back to my original 2.0n version after having upgraded to the 2.1n version, is that the last thing I did was change back to the original wire harness and in my ever-so-humble opinion, the original wire harness is much more musical with that elusive "breath of life" quality compared to the newer wire harness. YMMV. |
Thanks, Grant. I try to be diplomatic about things and I do my best not to bad-mouth products whether they need it or not. I always remember the old saying that " one man's trash is another man's treasure." We all have our own set of unique ears and listening preferences. I have to be honest, though, and when I give my honest opinion about something, even though it might go against the grain, I feel better about saying it. Since this hobby is a passion for me, I do my best to speak from the heart. And I try to remember to protect myself by adding the YMMV( Your mileage may vary) addendum. |
