Can an amp overdamp a speaker?

Dcstep, I don't know how much of a difference greater amplifier power makes. In my experience if the amplifier and speaker work well together, it doesn't really matter what the amplifier's damping factor is.

I used to think that a speaker would ring like a bell if the amp didn't have a high damping factor, but I no longer believe that. The voice coil is powered all the way through its cycle. In a properly designed speaker, the voice coil never has to depend on the amplifier's low output impedance to "put on the brakes" and stop unintended oscillation.

I have owned two amplifiers (Berning ZH-270 and Wolcott Presence P220M) that had variable damping factor controls, which imho was a useful feature for pairing up with different speakers. With neither amp did I ever encounter a speaker that sounded best with the damping factor at the highest setting.

I tend to like zero-global-feedback tube amps, which inherently tend to have a very low damping factor. This does limit speaker choice somewhat, but once I put on my speaker designer hat I see opportunity there instead of limitation.

Duke

That Duke, I appreciate your thoughts. However, this makes me wonder what I was hearing as both damping factor and power went up and ringing went down. This was in the DALI Helicon 400Mk.2. The difference wasn't subtle at all. All were SS amps and the bass was out of control with the low powered amp, tighter with the medium power stereo amp and the best with 500 watt mono-blocks. Do you think this was not so much due to damping, but more so to the power guiding the woofers? Or, is it something else?

Dave

Dave, its likely something else, in this case power and distortion. Audiophiles like to think that 'damping factor' is what they are hearing when the bass is better, and a lack of 'damping' when the bass is muddy. What is really happening is that an amplifier with clean bass is not making distortion. The amp that has muddy bass is making a lot of distortion. It really is that simple.

If you have ever spent time around instruments that actually make bass (bass drums, bass guitar, string bass, organ pedals) one thing you learn real quick is that there is no such thing as 'tight bass' in real life. 'Tight' bass only exists artificially.

Amps that exhibit 'tight' bass often have lots of feedback, which is there to reduce distortion. Unfortunately a price is paid: loop feedback at low frequencies can behave as a sort of dynamic compression, and has the ability to cause the amplifier to loose soundstage definition (the 'air' around instruments that flesh out the body of the instrument as well as its ambient signature). Often 'tight' bass is as a lack of definition at low frequencies.

IME, when you start to loose definition, the of the first things to go is the low frequency ambiance in the recording. Further reduction of definition results in 'poster board' images of instruments in the soundstage. Initially, this might sound as if the amp is more focused, but after a while the lack of ambient signatures (hall reflections and the like) let you know what is really going on.

Atmasphere's description here is EXACTLY what I heard with Wolcott amps as I turned the damping factor control up higher and higher. The loudspeakers were SoundLab fullrange electrostats:

"...[One] of the first things to go is the low frequency ambiance in the recording. Further reduction of definition [raising of damping factor] results in 'poster board' images of instruments in the soundstage."

Duke

03-31-08: Atmasphere said:
"Dave, its likely something else, in this case power and distortion. Audiophiles like to think that 'damping factor' is what they are hearing when the bass is better, and a lack of 'damping' when the bass is muddy. What is really happening is that an amplifier with clean bass is not making distortion. The amp that has muddy bass is making a lot of distortion. It really is that simple."

Well, that doesn't explain why one Jeff Rowland amp with 100 watts (into 4 ohms) of power sounded so much better in the bass than another Rowland amp with 275 watts into the same load, but with similar IM and harmonic distortion numbers.

There WAS distortion, but it seemed to be introduced by the woofers, not the amps. One amp controlled the woofers better than the other. (I'm a musician, so I know "real" bass. There were "Poster board" images of instrument in this case).

The least controlling amp was a relatively low powered Primare. Some might say it's bass had more "bloom", but I would have said it was "bloated". The lower powered Rowland improved the bass by a couple of orders of excellence, but the Rowland monoblocks really brought us very close to real bass.

When you speak of distortion, are you speaking of the entire system, including any uncontrolled resonance of the speakers' drivers? I heard that distortion and it's very real and obvious. The publish distortion numbers of amps are not measure with a big woofer on the other end of the wire. If we include that distortion, then it seems like damping and power will decrease system distortion given equal measurement of the amps under test loads without speakers attached.

Thanks for continuing to try to help Duke.

Dave