Cartridges: Complete Scam?

<frogman> Yes, your logic is good. We should be looking at turntable speed issues first and then resonance issues and to a lesser extent cartridge tracking and frequency range (closed related to tracking /construction). Its very dubious whether tracking ability gets better after $200.

The industry does not like what you are saying about price not being linked to performance in these areas. That doesn’t make it any less true.

Reviewers can and should focus on these easily measurable attributes and leave aside their chatter about preferred colorations.

My point was that a good $200 cart on a decent deck, say Technics SL1200G/ Rega RP8 etc will outperform a $2000+ cart on a Rega Planar 1 etc by a large margin. In fact no cart at any price on a Planar 1 will get close.

Dear Raul, the parallels to our earlier analog/digital debate in another thread should be obvious. I mention that as a point of interest only since I really would prefer to not return to that specific argument; we will simply not agree on that point. However, I do think it all highlights once again the simple fact that each of us is more or less sensitive to and more or less forgiving of specific playback performance shortcomings than others. With respect, I believe that you are more sensitive to tonal neutrality issues than to timing neutrality issues.

**** During the recording process exist speed un-stabilities through the R"R decks and maybe ( I don’t know for sure. ) during the cutting process and you can’t hear or detect that rhythm was losted. ****

I could not disagree more strongly. I have many recordings on lp and cd that were recorded in analog that clearly exhibit speed instabilities that hurt the rhythmic impetus of the music and are heard as decreased rhythmic “groove” in the performance and often glaringly in the sound of sustained piano notes. These issues are clearly heard as a product of either the recording or the mastering process and not due to turntable issues.

**** Do you know those TT speed limits for not affect the rhythm? because there is no perfect TT and almost all of us enjoy that MUSIC rhythm. ****

Of course they do.  Again, I could not disagree more. Some, otherwise “good” (and expensive) turntables sound rhythmically anemic. Moreover, how then does one explain the dramatic improvement in rhythmic impetus of the music when some “highly regarded” belt drive turntables are converted to string drive? Whether a listener enjoys the music or not depends on how sensitive he/she is to less than close-to-perfect speed stability. I say “close-to-perfect” because only in live music can one have perfect speed stability of the kind that allows the full rhythmic nuances of the performance; and if the PERFORMANCE is not perfectly rhythmically stable it can be heard as such and the product of the perfomance not a distortion by the equipment. I recognize that there exist turntables that are very very good in the speed stability department. Good direct drive tt’s obviously do extremely well in this dept. However, they, like all tables, have their own tonal signature and this becomes part of the “balance” of all parameters that we all try to achieve based on our own personal idea of what is best.

I have always felt that accurate reproduction of rhythm is the “final frontier” of good audio reproduction. Imo, it is the most overlooked and misunderstood audio performance parameter and what usually suffers most when recorded music is compared to live music since much more than timbre, frequency extension, soundstaging and all that audiophile stuff is where the music is.

Dear @frogman : Not only me but any human been is more sensible/sensitive to timing than neutrality, this is not what I’m trying to explain and that you took " letter by letter " of my post when that was not my intention.

I don’t disagree with you because I have ( not so many as you ) LP with timing " problems " that are easy detected but around the 90% of recordings the timing is just aceptable.

Now, my question to you was : which are those speed stability limits for we can’t detect any timing problem?

Example: if my TT instead to spin at 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm: can we detect it?.

Now, if what you are saying is that perfect timing is only in live music then in audio always we have a timing problem reproduction that exist even if we can’t detect it. My question to you is still the same: which are the limits? because audio is an imperfect medium.

Btw, in the whole recording/playback process the analog alternative is more prone to timing problems than digital.

Anyway: which are those speed unstability limits? zero tolerance? because the timing problem in  audio always existed and if in the future nothing change allways will be there. We can't avoid it. So, which your conclusion about? because even in the LPs where you like its rhythm exist a timing problem ! ! ! 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I'm not as knowledgeable as either one of you guys , but I'm pretty sure
my old ears can hear that much of a difference. They are just sending messages to the brain which I know can .

Dear Raul,

I am surprised that such an experienced audiophile as you seem to not differentiate between incorrect absolute turntable speed and speed instability.  First:

**** Now, if what you are saying is that perfect timing is only in live music ****

That is exactly what I’m saying and I don’t understand why that should surprise anyone.  A live performance will always have more rhythmic impetus, “groove”, PRAT, whatever one wants to call it compared to a recording of same and will be, by definition, “perfect”.  A recording may get very close depending on the quality of the equipment used to record/playback; and some listeners may be more sensitive than others to timing issues.  Btw, I don’t agree with your comment:

**** Not only me but any human been is more sensible/sensitive to timing than neutrality, ****

I have known many audiophiles who are much more sensitive to changes in timbre (bright, dark, harsh, smooth, etc.) than to timing issues.  As I mentioned, and with respect, you seem to be also.

**** Example: if my TT instead to spin at 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm: can we detect it?. ****

Probably not.  However, I can tell you that I know individuals with “perfect pitch” that can detect very very small changes in absolute pitch in music.  Let’s use a more realistic deviation from perfection; say 33.34 vs 33.33.  This may be heard as a very slightly faster/energetic performance of the same music; but if it remains STABLE at the “incorrect” speed it is not perceived as particularly problematic.  But this is not the issue; this is not what we are talking about.  SPEED STABILITY is the issue.  The problem is when the turntable’s speed does not remain locked on one speed and is constantly changing as is sometimes the case.  Even changes in very small increments are problematic.  This causes a very audible reduction in the rhythmic impetus of the music and the expressive value of the performance.  

**** Anyway: which are those speed unstability limits? zero tolerance? because the timing problem in audio always existed and if in the future nothing change allways will be there. We can't avoid it. So, which your conclusion about? because even in the LPs where you like its rhythm exist a timing problem ! ! ! ****

I have no idea what those limits are; and frankly I don’t care much.  As always, the numbers only tell part of the story and I prefer to let me ears tell me whether A or B sounds more like the real thing.  The rest of your statement we can agree on.  Again, recorded music will always fall short to some degree of the standard set by the live performance of the same.  As you say, “We can’t avoid it”.  So what?  I have always felt that this was a given and this doesn’t have to mean that recorded performances can’t be enjoyed limitations and all.  We try and minimize the problems with good equipment choices and setup and then we make the choice to either listen to and enjoy the music or focus on the equipment and it’s inevitable problems.