Cartridges: Complete Scam?

Dear @frogman : ""  I don’t understand why that should surprise anyone.   """. Again you took my sentences word by word. No, I'm not surprised with, all we know that reproduction of music vs live MUSIC is only a heavy make-up clown " and that's why i posted: " We can't avoid it ".
So what?, well we can't compare it in exactly way.

In home audio neutrality comes from what each one of us are accustom to and what neutrality means for each one of that almost always is different. Of course that there are people that likes more and use words as: warm, brigth, dark, etc, etc. These does not tell us that we are not more sensitive to timing, even some of us don't identify the word " timing " and its meaning but this does not says we are not more sensityive to timing than neutrality. Neutrality depends on the room/audio system items and set up when timing is independent of all that but that TT speed unstability. In the other side brain can accustom to little unstability speed and takes it as part of the music and we can't detect it because of that.

We can detect is that unstability is not only constant in the shor time and in high degree and some times even the kind of music we are listening and the SPL at what we are listening. No rules here.

You said that you don't have limits but what you listening is normally different as what I listening and other people listening and i'm refereing on what my brain is aware to detect and how is detected. In this regards  each one of us is a unique/individual.

Regards and enojoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

chakster, with respect, what does any of what you wrote have to do with the subject at hand?  You have missed the point.  First, while you are correct that adults cannot “develop” perfect pitch they can develop “relative pitch” which for all intents and purposes accomplishes the same thing.  However, none of that is the issue here.  While not usually identified as a difference in pitch the resulting effect of slightly faster or slower turntable speed is sometimes identified by audiophiles by some turntables being perceived as “livelier” than others.  The bigger issue still is INCONSISTENCY of speed.  This is clearly heard as reduced rhythmic excitement in recordings and worse.  All of this in comparison to the total absence of these timing distortions when the comparison is to live music.  Moreover, I would submit that even when audiophiles cannot identify this problem specifically it is one of the things that causes preference of one turntable over the other depending on individual sensitivity to these problems.  

@frogman well, i do not exactly following your full conversation with Raul , i can lost in all those posts. You're right about pitch instable, same with off-centered record pressing, we can hear it, yes. But  i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm. And for those of us who're not a musicians even pitched up or pitched down records sounds just fine, i want to pitch up some of my records, remember those Technics turntables with +/- 8% pitch control? At the same time what about those recordings when you clearly hear that instruments are not tuned right to each other, or slightly off beat and it's all about the quality of the musicians, you can't help it with the turntable. It's hard to be a musician when you can hear all that imperfections. Probably studio time was too expensive for some of the independent bands and they're decided to leave it like that on the record. And finally, i think quality direct drive turntables are stable. 

**** But i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm ****

I believe you are correct and I said as much in my response to Raul.  

I said in my first post on this subject that I think this is the most misunderstood topic in audio.  Another example why this is so:

Yes, bad intonation (pitch) from the musicians is a bad thing, but, again, has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.  Many musicians play with less than good intonation, but this has no relevance to the issue of rhythm and how that rhythm is reproduced by the playback equipment.  And of course as you say you “cant help it with the turntable”.  What is the point here?  The issue is simply whether the turntable will reproduce the rhythm of the performance accurately or not, musical performance problems and all.  No?

Dear @chakster : """  Most of the professional musicians does not have a perfect pitch!  """

Could be but I don't know for sure. What I found out with some professional musicians ( some friends of mine, including a Symphonic Director. ) is that over years their ears losted accuracy and the frequency range goes more and more limited/reduced. The main issue is not because they are older gentlemans but because oever the years they are exposed to extremely high SPL for continuous time.

"""  But  i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm. """

As you I think is almost imposible to do it. Our brain perceives that tiny unstability but what we listen in that TT condition the brain can't be sure if it's by speed unstability  or for other room/system characteristic.

Dear @frogman : """  is sometimes identified by audiophiles by some turntables being perceived as “livelier” than others. ........................................................... it is one of the things that causes preference of one turntable over the other depending on individual sensitivity to these problems. """

I think no one can be sure on what you said because there are to many parameters invloved down there. An analog rig is not only the TT and that " livelier " or " preference " can comes to from: cartridge, tonearm, IC cables, phono stage, that LP recording process because the speed unstability can comes from there and not from the TT it self, analog rig set up, etc, etc,
To aisle a problem of TT speed stability must be do it in a " scientific " way through measures in the short and long intervals of time or can be identified when that unstability is a gross one.
The other subject is that we have to take our time to be trained in our room/system to identify that critical " timing ". Not an easy task.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.