Good points Joe. Once again, you've added a brief but very cogent analysis of the how's and why's. In the future, i'll run my mouth / stir things up and you do the final presentation, okay ?? : )
Honestly though, the fact that you typically remain a "third party" in many of these posts and then summarize both points of view expressed sometimes helps me to see things more logically. There have been many times that you and a few others have added to the thread in such a manner that makes us think about the "big picture" and not just the subjects that we've gotten emotionally tied up in discussing in that thread. For that, i am grateful for your input and everyone else that contributes their thoughts. Even if they disagree with my thoughts : )
If anyone didn't follow what Joe was getting at, it looks like "high end" is following a logical progression. Some that never ventured into or just dabbled in a specific part of the "sonic stream" would actually call it "de-evolution" or "moving backwards".
If we think about things logically, most folks traded their warmer and more liquid sounding vinyl rigs as the primary source for more convenient digital based systems. Digital sounded like hell, but we somewhat got used to it over time. In most every case, digital was hard, bright, lean, lacked "PRAT" and was "soul-less" sounding, so in many systems over a gradual period of time, more and more tubes were introduced into the equation. This was done to try and make things both more listenable and "musical" again.
Given the added warmth and natural tendency to soften the treble response, this worked out pretty well. Only problem is, unless you have some of the best and most expensive tube gear available, tubes typically lack power output and current capacity. A such, the end users that didn't have "mega-dollar" / "built like a tank" tube gear ended up with bass was not what they were used to hearing.
To counter the shift in products being used, the manufacturers shifted from speakers that required a good amount of power with a more linear response to those that required less drive. While shifting to more sensitive i.e. "vented" designs, they also found that it was easy to artificially inflate the last few octaves of output. By doing so, the end users now had more bass, albeit all the time with less control, but their amps didn't have to work as hard to deliver low frequency output and current. This is because the speakers were already "hyped" in that region AND sensitivity is up. It was a "win/win" situation for those users that had systems that weren't balanced in operation and manufacturers / retailers that wanted to sell products.
The end result is that tonal balance was returned to sounding "warm & musical", even with using a digital source, but such results were achieved by introducing TONS of errors along the way. One "solution" created other problems that required further "solutions".
Same goes for those that stuck with digital and didn't use tubes. In many cases, they were using SS gear that was high in negative feedback, lacked both bandwidth and high current capacity and sounded "sterile" i.e. lean and hard. By adding quite a bit of measurable bass "weight" with the "new breed" of "audiophile approved" speakers, one didn't tend to notice how bright and piercing the treble was. Manufacturers were able to "kill two birds with one stone" i.e. both tube fans and those using lower grade SS electronics were satisfied.
As such, it would appear that the "high end" industry, their marketing departments and the "paid for by advertising" audio magazines aren't about "accurate musicality" at all. They are about selling complimentary colourations / sonic band-aids and telling you that they are accurate / sound "wonderful". Those that know how to read and interpret spec's know what is going on, but since the mass majority of user's don't know how to do this, the "audio guru's" were and still are "safe". Given the fact that we've been led down the path where "all amps sound the same" and "digital is perfect", most "critical" audio magazines have dropped test procedures and now rely stricly on subjective opinions. Those that can read spec's and interpret data on their own have been further alienated from finding out the "truth" and become disheartened with the industry as a whole.
As a side note, as much as i "bad-mouth" Stereophile, i still LOVE the fact that they provide some type of test bench measurements. Having said that, i still can't understand how someone could listen to a product and NOT know what they are hearing?!?! If all of this were not true, how could you explain someone ( end users & reviewers alike ) NOT noticing that a speaker has phenomenally bloated bass? To them, it doesn't sound "bloated" or out of place. This is probably because they've never heard a "linear" system with "accurate" tonal balance to begin with.
How could such a thing have happened? That's easy. They never had good vinyl rigs / proper phono stages "way back when" and were raised on "perfect sound forever". It's also possible that over the years, they've lost perspective due to lack of familiarity i.e. non-use of a good vinyl system. Obviously, this could skew one's perspective quite a bit.
As such, it seems like the culprit for all of our "troubles" and "major design changes" in the audio industry boils down to the introduction of sonically inferior digital technology some 20+ years ago. The audio industry and end users had to shift gears at that point in time, and looking back now, it would appear that it hasn't been a very smooth transition.
With all of that in mind, if you doubt that "digital is the devil" behind all of this, just ask Albert or Twl. They'll give you the low-down : ) Sean
>
PS... If you like what you're listening to, that is what counts. As i've said before, "buy what you like as you are the only one listening to it". Saying and getting someone else to believe that is is "accurate" or "linear in reproduction" may be another story though.
Honestly though, the fact that you typically remain a "third party" in many of these posts and then summarize both points of view expressed sometimes helps me to see things more logically. There have been many times that you and a few others have added to the thread in such a manner that makes us think about the "big picture" and not just the subjects that we've gotten emotionally tied up in discussing in that thread. For that, i am grateful for your input and everyone else that contributes their thoughts. Even if they disagree with my thoughts : )
If anyone didn't follow what Joe was getting at, it looks like "high end" is following a logical progression. Some that never ventured into or just dabbled in a specific part of the "sonic stream" would actually call it "de-evolution" or "moving backwards".
If we think about things logically, most folks traded their warmer and more liquid sounding vinyl rigs as the primary source for more convenient digital based systems. Digital sounded like hell, but we somewhat got used to it over time. In most every case, digital was hard, bright, lean, lacked "PRAT" and was "soul-less" sounding, so in many systems over a gradual period of time, more and more tubes were introduced into the equation. This was done to try and make things both more listenable and "musical" again.
Given the added warmth and natural tendency to soften the treble response, this worked out pretty well. Only problem is, unless you have some of the best and most expensive tube gear available, tubes typically lack power output and current capacity. A such, the end users that didn't have "mega-dollar" / "built like a tank" tube gear ended up with bass was not what they were used to hearing.
To counter the shift in products being used, the manufacturers shifted from speakers that required a good amount of power with a more linear response to those that required less drive. While shifting to more sensitive i.e. "vented" designs, they also found that it was easy to artificially inflate the last few octaves of output. By doing so, the end users now had more bass, albeit all the time with less control, but their amps didn't have to work as hard to deliver low frequency output and current. This is because the speakers were already "hyped" in that region AND sensitivity is up. It was a "win/win" situation for those users that had systems that weren't balanced in operation and manufacturers / retailers that wanted to sell products.
The end result is that tonal balance was returned to sounding "warm & musical", even with using a digital source, but such results were achieved by introducing TONS of errors along the way. One "solution" created other problems that required further "solutions".
Same goes for those that stuck with digital and didn't use tubes. In many cases, they were using SS gear that was high in negative feedback, lacked both bandwidth and high current capacity and sounded "sterile" i.e. lean and hard. By adding quite a bit of measurable bass "weight" with the "new breed" of "audiophile approved" speakers, one didn't tend to notice how bright and piercing the treble was. Manufacturers were able to "kill two birds with one stone" i.e. both tube fans and those using lower grade SS electronics were satisfied.
As such, it would appear that the "high end" industry, their marketing departments and the "paid for by advertising" audio magazines aren't about "accurate musicality" at all. They are about selling complimentary colourations / sonic band-aids and telling you that they are accurate / sound "wonderful". Those that know how to read and interpret spec's know what is going on, but since the mass majority of user's don't know how to do this, the "audio guru's" were and still are "safe". Given the fact that we've been led down the path where "all amps sound the same" and "digital is perfect", most "critical" audio magazines have dropped test procedures and now rely stricly on subjective opinions. Those that can read spec's and interpret data on their own have been further alienated from finding out the "truth" and become disheartened with the industry as a whole.
As a side note, as much as i "bad-mouth" Stereophile, i still LOVE the fact that they provide some type of test bench measurements. Having said that, i still can't understand how someone could listen to a product and NOT know what they are hearing?!?! If all of this were not true, how could you explain someone ( end users & reviewers alike ) NOT noticing that a speaker has phenomenally bloated bass? To them, it doesn't sound "bloated" or out of place. This is probably because they've never heard a "linear" system with "accurate" tonal balance to begin with.
How could such a thing have happened? That's easy. They never had good vinyl rigs / proper phono stages "way back when" and were raised on "perfect sound forever". It's also possible that over the years, they've lost perspective due to lack of familiarity i.e. non-use of a good vinyl system. Obviously, this could skew one's perspective quite a bit.
As such, it seems like the culprit for all of our "troubles" and "major design changes" in the audio industry boils down to the introduction of sonically inferior digital technology some 20+ years ago. The audio industry and end users had to shift gears at that point in time, and looking back now, it would appear that it hasn't been a very smooth transition.
With all of that in mind, if you doubt that "digital is the devil" behind all of this, just ask Albert or Twl. They'll give you the low-down : ) Sean
>
PS... If you like what you're listening to, that is what counts. As i've said before, "buy what you like as you are the only one listening to it". Saying and getting someone else to believe that is is "accurate" or "linear in reproduction" may be another story though.