Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Skushino, I tried the subs in-line w/ mains....

I made sure they were both exactly the same distance from the front wall, then tried them outside and inside of the mains - near wall, away from wall.

Between the mains, things started to open up and deepen at about 4.5 ft from the back wall out to ~8 ft at the Cardas Golden Ratio for setup. The difference in depth of soundstage between those two distances didn't seem to be too great. But, I got a marked difference when I angled the subs almost 45 degrees towards each other (the middle). That added a lot of air and space.

Unfortunately, that was 2am and the differences could have been from fatigue. Like an idiot, the next day I started moving things around and cannot find that exact spot again.

But, when I moved the subs to the corners there was a noticable difference in depth. The only problem was that it seemd like the bass frequencies were slightly disconnected, lagging, or behind(time-wise) the rest of the music.(This was with the speakers 7 ft out and subs in corner) Nothing obvious, just a subtle feeling that kind of threw off the cohesiveness of everything.

As I moved the mains back toward the wall (and subs) the timing began to integrate again. Right now, at 4 ft. from the wall, the timing issue isn't readily noticable yet.

SirSpeedy's:

I'm going to try mocing the subs out of the corner more to see how that works. Oddly, I also have my mains 39" from th side wall. This places them at the null of 84Hz width mode(though sitting in the center-width of the room already deos this). So far, that seems to the best spot for maximizing soundstage width while maintaining imaging.

Skushino - Audio Physics advises against subs in-line w/ mains. (see bottom of page)

"If you encounter any problems with this set-up, you may consider adding a subwoofer, which should not be placed in line with the speakers."

Dear Scott: +++++ " So why does almost everyone put the sub behind the satellites??? Aesthetics? Convenience? Sound? " +++++

I don't know for sure: sometimes for convenience, some times for sound or aesthetics.

When I start the integration of my subs I try at the corners ( behind the main speakers ) but does not work: bass too heavy. I try in line ( outside and inside ) with the mains: terrible. I try others room location till I finish with boths subs in front of the mains facing each other and in " open air " position.

If you take a look on speakers designs some of them have their woofers in a side of the cabinet facing each other: NHT, Coincident, Gallo, etc....

I know that everything about is room dependent but by coincidence like six months ago a friend of mine call me to invite to hear his new purchase: Velodyne DD-18. He owns ML with Levinson electronics.
He explain me all the DD-18 features ( very interesting ) and how easy to find te right position in any room and he explain me that the best position of the DD-18 was in the right corner behind the main speakers and front/firing.

Then we start to hear some music: classic, Jazz, rock, etc.., the sound was good but not good enough for what the system " have to offer ". Something was " wrong " with the bass ( only one subwoofer ).

I suggest him to put the DD-18 side-firing instead front-firing, we do that and Voila!!! the bass problem disappear. He do the measurements through the hardware/software in the DD-18 and he find that side-firing do an improvement in measurements too. Coincidence??

I don't have a sound degree to explain why the side-firing position could improve the bass response, but it works.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " .If anyone wants to add "good" low frequencies,to an already good speaker,then the technology is readily available.The problem,to me,on this thread,is that some of the recommendations may scare away some potential music lovers,with the inference of needing 2 units,or additional crossovers.It is simply NOT true. " +++++

The problem is not on this thread. The problem is your approach about, you are talking of something really different for what this thread is all about.

The thread is extremely clear and is not a thread for to " add good low bass " like you say, this subject is for other different thread.

I urge you to read again an very carefully this link thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27

Here are the targets of this thread. Your concept is an old one ( I respect that ) an different from the whole subwoofers subject explain in this thread.

Please don't be or don't do that others people can be confused about.

Of course that the integration of two subwoofers in a true stereo way has its own trade-offs: need space room, two subwoofers, money, ettc., but what we can get for these trade offs in quality sound reproduction you can't imagine and every trade off about is justify. This is up to what any one want to have about music sound reproduction through their own audio system.
I can assure you and to any one: nothing come close to the integration of two subs in a TSW. Period.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Raul,please don't preach to me.My thoughts certainly DO apply to this thread.I seldom see threads that stick,EXACTLY, to the exact subject.I,personally,like to see other "RELATED" viewpoints on subject material,that interests me.That is how one can come to a related piece of info,that could add a different perspective,to a topic.Which may be helpful.We are still talking about low freq performance,and if I can help to persuade someone that they do not have to fear complexity,or additional costs,of two subs,if they can implement one,than that's all my intentions are!!I fail to see your problem with this!

As for the 2 sub issue!!Raul,I have owned some of the BIG Infinities in the past!My friend's have these,as well as Pipe Dreams,with 4 subs.So I know exactly what you are talking about.That being said,I'll still stick with my previous comments,that one does NOT have to have two subs.It is room/main speaker related!Unless you simply must listen to movie soundtracks,all day at 110 db.Then Raul,you'll have to consider 4 units,like my friend has in his Pipe set-up.How about it?Ever hear 4 in your room?The little ceramic figures on your coffee table would not survive(that's a joke,btw)!