First order/Time Phase-Coherent speakers discussions


"The game is done! I’ve won! I’ve won!"


I would like to use this thread to talk about this subject which I find rather fascinating and somewhat difficult to get my hands on. I went through a course in electromagnetism in college and I have to say this is even more confusing and you won’t find the answer in calculus, physics, Einstein relativity be damned it’s not in there either and definitely not in quantum physics. Listening to the "experts" from Vandersteens and Stereophile but ultimately it all came down to a missing link sort of argument ... something like this:
"Since if a speaker can produce a step response correctly, therefore it is time-phase coherent, and therefore it must be "good".

It’s like saying humans come from chimps since they share 90% genetic content with us, but we can’t find any missing links or evidence. FYI, we share a lot of gene with the corn plants as well. Another argument I’ve heard from John Atkinson that lacks any supporting evidence and he said that if everything else being equal, time-phase coherence tends to produce a more coherent and superior soundstage, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody has been able to produce some semblance of evidence since there is no way to compare apples to apples. Speaker "A" may have better soundstage simply because it’s a BETTER design, and the claim "time-phase coherent" is just a red herring. There’s no way one can say the "goodness" from "time-phase coherence" because you can’t compare apples to apples. Ultimately it’s a subjective quantification.

I’ve been doing some simulation and I will post some of my findings with graphs, plots, actual simulation runs so that we are discussing on subjective personal opinions. Some of my findings actually shows that intentionally making time-phase may result in inferior phase problem and NOT better! (will be discussed more in detail).

Having said all that, I am actually in favor of first order/time-phase coherent if POSSIBLE. I am not in favor of time-phase coherence just for the sake of it. It’s just that there are a lot of mis-information out there that hopefully this will clear those out. Well hopefully ...

Here my preliminary outline:

1. My "subjective" impression of what is "musicality" and how it’s related to first order filters.
2. Interpretation of step-response. I’ve read a lot of online writing with regard to the interpretations but I think a lot of them are wrong. A proper interpretation is presented with graphs and simulations.
3. A simulation of an 1st order and higher order filters with ideal drivers and why time-phase coherence is only possible with 1st order filter. This part will use ideal drivers. The next part will use real world drivers.
4. A simulation with actual drivers and how to design a 1st order/time phase coherent speaker. Discuss pros and cons. And why time-phase coherence may actually have phase issues.
5. Discuss real world examples of time-phase coherence with Thiel’s and Vandersteens speakers (and why I suspect they may not ultimately be time-phase coherent in the strictest sense).
6. I’ll think of something real to say here ... :-)
andy2
I have followed B&W since the company was founded.  You can measure time phase differences.  When B&W began, all the profits went into laser and computers.  They measured the electrical signal and compared it with what the laser showed came out of the speaker.  The they bought some KEF three way speakers, and designed a better crossover, marketing the product as a  Domestic Motor.  This speaker used the same drivers as KEF, their oblong woofer, a Celestion upper midrange/tweeter, and a Coles super tweeter.  The woofer was designed to be narrow for tax reasons, because the British Value Added Tax wa based on speaker width. Their second speaker only changed to a round woofer.  The DM 4 ported the same box, instead of the lot, and turned this speaker upside down, which it should have been from the beginning, because it was a bit large to put on it side on a shelf.  Further research, with evolving better equipment showed that phase alignment created a more coherent sound stage, begatting the DM6, affectionately known as The Pregnant penguin.  The DM 7 and DM14 were next, with the position of the exposed tweeter of the 17 drawing a lot more attention than using electronic time delay, which also a had the issue of only working in a frequency dependent way.  The rest is history, but includes better and better measuring equipment, materials, beveled cabinet edges (explaining why the wood Advents sounded better than the vinyl ones), then the sound deadening of the Matrix cabinets.

Phase alignment is certainly measurable.  
...much like real life...

What’s in the YT video is the basis of what I’ve been pursuing; a 2-way column, close proximity of the drivers, height to take advantage of the ’angle of radiation’, spare construction. Appearance in the long run will be a simple ’lipstick’ fabric column of fabric.
Not ’cat-proof’ to begin with...don’t have any at this time... ;)
Form following function...
Phase alignment is certainly measurable.  
its all a myth. Most important thing is frequency response. 
I always thought the goal was having 20to20 arriving at your ears, at the same time and in phase. Many ways to do this. Wasn't Mirage one of the first to put an out of phase tweeter on the rear ?