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High quality subwoofer - which one?

I’ve owned my C4’s for about six months now, and they are excellent. But, you can’t ask a speaker to things it isn’t big enough to do. What that is, is to go FLAT to 20 Hz. The Vandersteen Quatro’s had built-in 250 watt class B powered subwoofers that are to die for once you hear them. The blemish on the Quatros, and it is a small one, was the slightly veiled lower midrange. The C4’s are absolutely seamless everywhere they go. The lowest bass can be fixed and most would probably say it’s not even necessary...until you hear a real sub system that is. Once you hear the effortlessly smooth low-end of a dedicated sub woofer you just can’t forget about it.

I started looking at subwoofers, and they are expensive, but relative to what this hobby’s cost(s) can be on some item(s), they are affordable. Well, ONE is affordable, anyway. I have three models that seem to all be nice products, and was curious what the feet on the street have used and your likes / dislikes. One model that I have not included needs an external hi-pass filter and I may be dismissing this model out of hand…and shouldn’t be and if you use this model, convince me.

I have a pretty large room (16’ wide x 40’ long x 8.5’ high (ceiling is split at 7.5’ and 9’)) so a bigger sub may be needed. Right now, I’m thinking ONE sub crossed-over pretty low. The C4’s do go pretty deep, but I probably agree that two would be “best” but expensive and the narrower room might make double placement hard. One is a snap, between the speakers away from the wall or near the right corner. I do not play “loud” (80-85 dB SPL average based on my radio shack SPL meter) but still like the smooth deep bass of a sub. Crazy loud isn’t the issue, but the sound quality is.

The choices are mind boggling in cost (JL Audio in mono or stereo) or mono (VELODYNE DD15+) verses stereo (SVS PB13 Ultra) set-ups at the same price. I have three options below to illustrate this.

The set-up that seems too expensive but outrageously good;
JL Audio Fathom f113 - $3600.00 / 13” / 2500 watts peak class D amplifier / sealed box.
But the sub needs a high-pass Cross-over like a Bryston 10B-STD @ $3,500.00

This is expensive compared to the SVS, but is it better than TWO SVS units?
Velodyne DD15 Plus - $4,000.00 / 15.0” / 1250 watt continuous class D amplifier / sealed box.

This seems like a good price but is the product good enough even if the price is? Use TWO of these in place of one DD15 Plus?
SVS PB13-Ultra - $2,000.00 / 13.5” / 1000 watts continuous class D / ported box.

So what have we done with subwoofers and why? This got real complicated real fast. Ported, vented, stereo at the same price as a mono sub ETC. The odds of auditioning these monsters are about zero as you hear the room. My room seems to be pretty good down low based on my Quatro set-up with powered subs. If a decision isn’t easy, I’m missing something…a lot of something’s it turns out.
rower30
halcro's avatar
halcro
2,664 posts
 
Rower,
With remote subwoofers.........one has the ability to position them to counteract room modes, suck-outs etc and achieve the strongest bass performance at the listening position.
With subs attached to the main speakers.......there is not that same ability and positioning the main speakers for imaging and soundstage becomes.......quite rightly.....the main criteria.
This unfortunately is rarely the best location for subs in most listening rooms hence the need for some form of equalisation for the inbuilt subs to ameliorate this compromise.
To say the Vandersteen remote sub is "out of date" because of the omission of equalisation is therefore rather harsh I believe.
If you were to hear the purity and transparency combined with the foundation depth available with the 2Wq subwoofers.........you may not desire any further electronics placed in the signal path?
I certainly don't :^)
erndog's avatar
erndog
261 posts
 
Johnnyb53- My experience is that everybody has an opinion about everything and so I take it with a grain of salt. The experience I trust is when I try different things and to hear how that sounds in my system with my ears. Only you can say what will work best in your system. For me, I definitely wan to try what Barry recommended. Right now I can't afford the Bryston, so I did some research and found a couple other high pass crossovers that could do the job. NHT X2 (discontinued, so what have to be a used model) or HSU High Pass Filter for $100 new.

Rtilden- Barry also told me about using sealed mains. I experimented by plugging the ports in my Tylers and didn't like how it sounded, so I'm keeping the ports open. Those Woodmeres are monster speakers and I'm sure they have a huge soundstage. Good luck with the Rythmik sub.
bradluke0
163 posts
 
Hi all ! The Vandersteen's are excellent speakers . With that being said , if it were me I would make sure my speaker positioning was absolutely perfect . I have always preferred no sub and a well setup system vs any sub . Hate to rock the boat here but Imho subs are better for movies . Good luck whatever you decide .
martykl
3,578 posts
 
For erndog and rower:

The NHT is a very good unit. I used it with my Velo SMS-1, because I wasn't crazy about Velodyne's internal hi-pass. The NHT is pretty much transparent (to my ear, anyway),really flexible, and reasonably priced
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 

04-11-12: Erndog
Johnnyb53- My experience is that everybody has an opinion about everything and so I take it with a grain of salt. The experience I trust is when I try different things and to hear how that sounds in my system with my ears. Only you can say what will work best in your system.

Absolutely right. Barry is probably playing the odds as far as what generally works well, but there are so many variables that in the end you have to match the sub to your speakers, your room, your speaker and sub placement, etc.

For example, sealed vs. ported mains: sealed speakers have a 12 db/octave rolloff; ported ones something more like 18-24. Which one is easier to blend? Depends on the sub's crossover point and curve. Ported? Front or back? How close to the wall? If rear-firing port close to the wall, Barry's right. If front firing and the speaker is out from the wall, you can probably get a good blend. As you point out, you can damp or plug a port but don't know if it'll hurt or help until you try.

I've heard sub integrations with a high pass to the mains and others without. Sometimes the high pass is better (e.g., to the B&W PM-1's with 4-1/2" woofer) and sometimes without (Magnepan 20.1 or my Mirage OMD-15).

Have you thought about a Dynaudio Sub 600? Claimed freq response is -3dB at 18 Hz and includes a high pass filter settable to 60 or 80Hz or bypass.
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