Holographic Soundstage ?


I would like to share my observation and hopefully get some input from people who have the same interest.

My system consist of Wharfedale Opus 3 , Krell KRC-3 preamp, Krell KSA 150 amp, Chord Qutest DAC and a computer with JCAT USB EX running Roon/with LPSU from HDPlex.
I mainly like holographic soundstage and would be able to achieve a very good 3D soundstaging with my current Krell setup.
I decided to try out tube amp a couple days ago because I read through the internet and everybody told me that tube amp always have better holographic soundstage and 3D imaging comparing to SS amp.
So I order a Raven Blackhawk MK3 from Raven audio with 45 days home trial just to try it out. I was expecting a very holographic soundstage that will blow my Krell out of the water.
Well, I was so WRONG. The Krell combo actually has a deeper and wider soundstage comparing to the Raven.
The Raven also has some very weak bass comparing to the Krell which is more punchy and tonally rich textured bass.
I cannot understand why it happens. I am always under the impression that tube amp will always provide more holographic soundstage. Obviously, In my set up the Krell is superior when it come to 3 dimensionality.

I will keeping trying out the Raven Blackhawk in the next couple of weeks and if things are not improved. I am ready to return the Raven and perhaps trying out the other tube amps (or solid state amps) that can beat the Krell combo.

If any one has some idea of such a product, please let me know. I am looking for an upgrade right now.

128x128viethluu
"If any one has some idea of such a product, please let me know. I am looking for an upgrade right now."

Don Sachs has introduced his Valhalla  integrated recently and it is a giant killer.  It can use a variety of power tubes and its signal tubes are those luscious 6sn7's. Huge soundstage and imaging.  And at around $4500 is a bargain to boot.  
@gkr7007

have you read this thread?

with all due respect to don, i don’t think you are doing him any favors suggesting his valhalla to drive these dual 10 in woofers in the op’s wharfedales to replace a 150/300 wpc krell ksa150

i would say it is 50-50 proposition at very best that his 30 wpc unit will handle them properly...
God, I really don’t want to get into another Raven thread but I have to share an experience...

When I had him on the phone right before I purchased their amplifier, I told James that the number one thing I’m looking for in their amplifier is a holographic image.
He told me I was the first person to ever say they wanted that when they were about to buy one of their amplifiers.

At that moment, a red flag had gone off in my head.
I also think the speakers are the best thing to change for a more holographic sound. I like Fyne so F501SP would for me be something to check out but there sre many good speakers. 
The level of holographic sound, etc. is dependent on system voicing, i.e. everything in your system including the room. That stated some are more naturally holographic.

Two of my three systems are:
  1. A 105dB sensitivity system--holographic
  2. A 89dB sensitivity system--non-holographic

1. The valve/tube amps in the first system are extremely holographic to the point, where a non-audiophile musician noticed it. She remarked without prompting by me and in her own words, "Wow, incredible big sound, but not loud and just BIG. Do you have speakers behind the walls? The music from the orchestra sounds like it is coming from several feet on the other side of the walls." I switched the system to solid state amps and she stated that it was good and more "punchier," but not as 3D and lacked "crisp natural sounding cymbals."

2. Switching to the second system (ESLs with high power), she said, "This is good, but . . . well, fatiguing and more in your face. The singer sounds like her head is 6 feet tall with a 3 foot mouth. I would get tired of this after a while, but is a good/different sound." Me, "More intimate?" Her, "Yes. More intimate."

Both auditions were from the same roon labs qobuz 192x24 source using the same OEM model DACs.

I noticed that your Wharfedales (I am a fan of them, because like me they are from the UK) are very insensitive--think large earth-based telescope. High sensitivity is like the Hubble telescope devoid of atmospheric interference. Why? One hears a lot of details (some unwanted like noisy amps, and yes most are "A" rated by Stereophile) and content simply not reproduced on lower sensitivity regardless of SPL or amplification, DACs, phono, etc. Think of insensitive speakers of having an atmosphere or lens in the way.

I am a fan and own both systems, and that is why there is no perfect system for many reasons. That’s what makes the hobby fun.

I listen to the ESLs system 20 times more often, than the big sounding 105db sensitivity system. Why? I can abuse the ESLs system and don’t care or give a damn. There are way too many sand (silicon) based amps out there for sale and speakers that love them. So, it is easy to price and replace. The system is on 24x7 and gets plenty of abuse. Robust it is.

OTOH the "tube" base system requires more TLC, warmup, and voicing with the right amps is a b*tch to get right. Most amps are noisy, e.g. I have a pair of Canary M-80s that "hum" (no, it’s not a ground loop, etc. it is the amp) with tube rush that sounds like a babbling brook. Nothing wrong with the install or system. That’s the pitfall of a sensitivity system. Very few amps sound quiet and good. The quiet amps are choked to death with negative feedback, unity, or push/pull designs. After 40 years with this system I’ve tried/bought/borrowed/auditioned just about everything.

Bottom-line:
System#1 is extremely holographic, but extremely finicky and sometimes fragile . . . like a centuries old Scotch . . . use sparingly.
System#2 is not holographic and not fragile. Devil-may-care attitude applies.

And yes, everyone should have more than one system at both ends of sensitivity. Listening to the same source on two extremely different systems is like doubling one’s music collection. :)

Remember that there is no single "god" system. Voicing and a room smaller than 40ft x 40ft x 40ft impacts the sound, because the SWR goes up in small/tiny rooms (anything lower than 40ft ceiling). Yes, one can "fool" ears with room treatments into thinking that the SWR is low, but it isn’t. The standing waves are still there.

Best rooms out there?
  • Wiener Staatsoper
  • Pacific Pantages (when it was a theatre) - middle front row balcony seat
What do they have in common? SIZE and high ceilings. And yes, they are holographic by design. Ever wonder why cathedrals and opera houses have high ceilings? The space contributes to the sound. Composers and people already knew this in the 17th century. Raw room size does matter. If he were alive, J.S. Bach would agree.

Have fun.

Cheers,
g