If boulder is tops what is second tier?

Interesting stuff, all, until the topic veered off into other subjects.

There are a number of things that were likely said at CES (and what in the world, exactly, was a consumer doing at CES, and why in the world was someone attempting to grasp sound quality at a trade show?!?) that were or could have been misconstrued, none of which really needs to be gotten into too deeply here. Suffice it to say, there are a number of things regarding the engineering of electronics that should prevent them from being affected by the cables connecting them. That's not to say that every cable, whether power or analog or digital, is not a filter - that's exactly what they are due to a number of things in their makeup, such as capacitance, inductance, etc. If a product is properly engineered, it shouldn't care less what's used to connect it and the given product's response should remain stable with any reasonably designed cable. Any changes in sound are simply the losses, omissions, or distortions of that particular conductor's filter characteristics and should NOT be the result of a cable's electrical characteristics affecting the electrical operation of a piece of gear. Some affect things much less than others. None, if designed by someone with any degree of technical knowledge, should be life altering. If anyone wants any further explanation, feel free to contact me at the e-mail address below.

As for what manufacturer makes first, second, third, or last tier products, simply look at the number of products listed by the respondents - there is no Holy Grail and just about every product will have a following. Judge and listen with your own ears and ignore the preferences of others, especially those based on emotion and not rationale. Your own ears are, after all, the only ones you should be concerned with satisfying. Listen to what your ears tell you to listen to.

Cheers, guys, and relax.

Rich Maez

So, Rich, what cables does Boulder use/recommend? That is to say, which cable design do you think filters the least and how do you determine that? I guess I'm asking how did you determine that your products are doing their best without attaching one of these "filters"? Did you somehow connect directly to the grid?

There are a number of things that were likely said at CES (and what in the world, exactly, was a consumer doing at CES, and why in the world was someone attempting to grasp sound quality at a trade show?!?)

I assume that's directed at me since I am the person who described the situation. In addition to being hired by Audiogon to cover CES, I do advertising photography for dozens of high end audio manufacturers and I'm a reviewer for Positive Feedback.

I believe I had a right to be at CES, visit the Boulder room and subsequently offer help (out of my personal schedule) to resolve an issue I thought was important.

Suffice it to say, there are a number of things regarding the engineering of electronics that should prevent them from being affected by the cables connecting them.

Regardless of you (or you're companies) view on the value of aftermarket interconnects, digital or AC cables, you cannot deny that lifting the ground on electrostatic speakers that operate at more than 10K volts bias is not a good idea.

The accessory outlet on the table lamp is not the proper connection for a Sound Lab M-1 speaker. If you check with Sound Lab you will find the supplied AC cord is heavier gauge and supplied with integral ground via the IEC design.

Regardless of whether you (or your boss) agree that aftermarket power cords are of benefit, sloppy set up at the most prestigious audio show in America shows blatant disregard for those sharing the room, just as much as the attitude that was shown to me when I offered to help.

I will try to follow your sage advice and be cheerful and relax, but the thought of an amplifier company like Boulder being so arrogant and rude does anger me and I am generally considered to be a gentleman among those that know me.

I am glad to see a-goners write about their experiences and what their exact feelings are.
We are all here to learn and these experiences that are mentioned are priceless. I am hoping the industry is listening to what we are saying, because afterall we are their lifeline.
I am by nature a skeptic but when I see proof that something is really improving the sound then I become a fan of that product/idea.
It just spurred an idea for a new thread that I will start soon.

Rich; you said;

"Suffice it to say, there are a number of things regarding the engineering of electronics that should prevent them from being affected by the cables connecting them."

i am one that has a great deal of experience with different gear and lots of cables. no matter what gear or combination of gear i have tried the sonic performance has always varied with the cables i used. cables are a component.....whether one likes it or not. OTOH if someone sees it different no problem.....i feel no need to convince anyone. it is typically the cable non-believers that have some inate need to convince people differently.

i have recently had an experience that does say a bit about cables/gear interaction though. Herve Delatraz, the darTZeel amp and preamp designer/manufacturer, wrote an article for Stereophile back in November 2001. this was prior to him introducing any commercial products. this article focused on how impedence interaction between electronic gear reduced the ultimate performance of any cables. he theorized that impedence matching would basically eliminate most cable differences.

a year ago i recieved his new preamp (i already had two of his amps). both his amp and preamp are designed to work with 50 ohm BNC cables both in and out (he calls this design a 'zeel' connection). he represents that any length up to 1 kilometer will sound the same (which is to say much better than standard cables due to impedence matching). after listening i must agree with his representation.

the only thing is that even though the Zeel connection outperforms any standard cable approach......after comparing various 50 ohm BNC cable brands there is still a variance in how each type sounds (i prefer Herve's version).....and the differences are quite easy to discern.

conclusion; we are not finished learning about what cables do.....but there is no doubt in my mind that different cables many times sound differently. which does not mean that everyone can/will hear the differences in their situation.

one more issue; there is no place in the audio chain where cables have more effect than the phono cable.....the tiny signal that the cartridge produces combined with the need to boost it 40db to 70db will multiply cable influence many times. if you can't hear phono cable differences look to your system performance and resolution and not proof that cables don't matter. it is very clear.