Is the Teres a

Well Jean, I'm glad you're fighting it too.

I've been on the bandwagon for over 20 years now.
I admit that my focus has been on belt drive tables for virtually all of this time, and I've been trying to look at ways to solve their problems, and with some tables, they actually have been solved.

With the non-stretch drive belt, it is necessary to have a non-cogging, almost vibrationless motor, so that there is no transmission of the cogging or vibration effects from the motor to the platter via the non-stretch drive belt. Then all that is left is the stylus drag issue, and that can easily be solved by enough rotational mass in the platter, and enough torque in the motor. Once the cogging is gone, then all the rest of the stuff falls into place. The only problem with the non-cogging DC motors is the cumulative slowdown which can occur from the additive effects of stylus drag over the course of the LP side, but this seems to be able to be overcome by this system, because on my Teres it isn't occurring(and I use low compliance cartridges which would exaggerate stylus drag more than most other cartridges). Interestingly, the Teres bearing uses the viscous drag of the lubricant in the tightly toleranced bearing to keep the platter constantly in a slight state of drag, so that the motor is pulling at all times, and no "freewheeling" occurs to mess with the speed. Perhaps this is why the stylus drag issue doesn't have the same effect as it does on other table designs.

I'm convinced that alot of what goes on in high-end audio stems from "traditions" like "that's the way it's always been", and only a few mavericks have broken from this with new designs over the years. But, as we go on, more and more people are trying new(or old cast off) things in an attempt to move toward better sound. It's a good thing.

As I've been known to say, "I don't care if there is a hamster in an exercise wheel in that box, if it sounds good, I'm for it."

"better .... is a well-designed idler-wheel drive with a monstrous but designed exactly and precisely and solely for turntables. Try the experiment...."

Where can such a drive be purchased? Does one size fit all or does the weight of the platter matter? Thanks.

Hi George, there was a typo there, the word "motor" being excluded from "well-designed idler-wheel drive with a monstrous but designed exactly and precisely and solely for turntables motor", meaning a motor designed specifically for use on a turntable, and specifically to combat stylus drag. A similar but less impressive motor (and not specifically built for use in record players) was used in the design of the Versa Dynamics (or Rockport) turntable at some point, and reportedly cost upwards of $300 from the manufacturer. Unfortunately the adjustments and measurements to make this idler-wheel system work as well as it does are quite stringent, so the only practicable way to try the experiment is to buy a Lenco L75 or L78 (in North America, in Europe the armless versions are available), remove and replace the tonearm, use the entire Lenco motor/platter/top-plate and construct or have constructed for you a new heavy, non-resonant plinth, making it an unsuspended deck (which is simpler anyway, but does have sonic dividends). The Lenco motor is unsurpassed, its drive system superb, as is its platter, its bearing of high-quality, and its idler wheel the best ever designed. It's all explained in the very lengthy "Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot" thread on this very forum, which is a lengthy process. For a briefer apercu, click on my "system" and also visit the following pithy website: http://members.home.nl/fmunniksma/Lencotdl.htm The cheapest way yet devised for blindingly good vinyl playback performance, an experiment on just how audible stylus drag is, and fun too! I'm an ornery critter ;-) So far the Mighty Lenco has defeated a Well Tempered Classic, a Nottingham Spacedeck, various Maplenolls, an Audiomeca, various Linn LP12s, and others reported to me via private e-mails. Cost is roughly $200 plus tonearm and cartridge of your choice, and to get the true measure of the 'table, don't short-change it with an el-cheapo tonearm, use at the very least some Rega or variant, 4yanx first bravely tried his with a Graham 2.2! And to continue the PRaT discussion, PRaT comes in various strengths, like alcohol. A 'table can have PRaT, but how much PRaT does it have? Below a certain level, it's the same as having none, and it can reach heights undreamed-of, as the Lenco Experiment shows. Anyway, bear in mind the design/advice/guidance is all free, the Lencos themselves are cheap, the experiment both fun and instructive, and I let the results speak for themselves.

I'm with Jean and Twl on the speed stability issue, and also in the belief that there's more than one way to achieve it. I haven't built a Lenco but I certainly trust comparisons like 4yanx's, Albert's and many others.

Twl's explanation of the weaknesses of many belt-driven designs (unstable motors, stretchy or slipping belts ) is exactly consistent with our experience. Our Teres was built when they were still experimenting with different drive belts. It arrived with both a silk thread and a 1/2" VCR tape. We were asked to try both and report results.

We did, and the differences were clearly audible. It was so bad with the silk thread that Paul actually wondered if we'd made a serious mistake. "This is the table that's supposedly killing $8K+ tables? How awful must they be?!" The time smearing of notes was painful, and we didn't need any audiophile mag to tell us something was wrong.

Then we switched to the tape drive. I reported its superiority here:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1062459400&openmine&zzDougdeacon&4&5#Dougdeacon

As mentioned by Chris Brady later down that thread, the best results have been achieved with 1/2" mylar tape. That's what all up-to-date Teres owners use AFAIK. It makes a bit of HF noise going around the motor spindle, but that's inaudible from more than a few feet away. The speed stability (PRaT if you like) it provides is more than worth it.

Once you've got speed (and also resonances) under control, the investment in more costly arms and cartridges becomes fully audible and worthwhile. Until then they'd be partly a waste of money. In this sense Twl's philosophy of table before arm before cartridge is proven exactly correct.

Just last week I tried the aramid fiber (kevlar?) belt supplied with another high end table on my Teres. Lovely quietness going 'round the spindle, but its slight stretchiness sucked the life and jump from the music. The leading edge of every note was rounded off and dull. Paul made a nasty face and I quickly took it off.

Idler wheel, direct drive, belt drive. Each can apparently provide the necessary speed stability. It's all in the engineering.

Johnnantais,

“PRaT is the MOST important factor, since the sense of musicality arises from PRaT, or timing or whichever facet of correct speed you want to talk about.”

Nothing like a reductionist, someone who takes a very complex series of events or complex phenomena and reduces them to a single, overly simplified explanation or root cause.

“By this I mean, if one has to accept less than perfection and sacrifices must be made, where does one make the sacrifices? I submit that musicality (PRaT) is the one thing that must NEVER be sacrificed.”

That’s your opinion.

“I would also point out that correct timing (PRaT), IS "speed stability, wow and flutter" and the more stable the speed the better the PRaT will be.”

Really? Most budget, direct-drive turntables have excellent measured speed stability and very low wow and flutter, but sound drab compared to many well-made, belt-driven turntable systems, which, albeit, cost much more.

“Let us bow before these Mighty Creations as they have ludicrous price tags far beyond our reach.”

Feeling a tiny bit jealous are we?

“Try the experiment to verify my assertions, I've thrown this particular gauntlet down several times over the last year with a 100% success rate so far (even my enemies admitted the Lenco's great sonic prowess and musical power), all are welcome to join and report on the results.”

Enemies? I think you are taking this issue way too seriously. And I am not surprise to see that you are pushing your own product, or creation. You’re not biased a bit, are you?

“I would describe him [Art Dudley] as a man of courage and integrity…”

I would describe Art as being cavalier and perhaps lacking in extensive turntable experience by his own admission. His article did not impress me, nor am I impressed by your post, a wandering diatribe about the virtues of PRaT and turntable musicality. If it weren’t for 4yanx’s endorsement of your views, I would have completely dismissed your post as a misguided rant by one who is overly sensitive and unduly attached to his own opinions and rhetoric.