Krell KAS amplifier hum

jg2077 12-12-2019 8:59 pm EST:
... the pre is plugged into a common 15A outlet; the amps are plugged into a dedicated 20A outlet and ALL else is unplugged. I still hear the same amount of hum.

I installed a "cheater plug" between the pre and wall outlet, I hear less hum than before, about 70% less. I cannot hear hum from my listening position (10ft) away....


jg2077 12-12-2019 10:14 pm EST:
I plugged EVERYTHING as before, with one exception, there is a "ground cheater " between the pre and power distributor. The hum is 50% less than first posted.

I tried both amps on the same outlet - no change.

Am I correct in understanding that in the first of these two experiments the preamp was plugged directly into the wall outlet, without the power conditioner? If not that should certainly be tried, as Lowrider had suggested earlier.

Jim (Jea48), thanks for the link and your comments about the power conditioner. I also looked at the writeups at the Silver Circle website about the 5.0 conditioner and also at the writeup about the 5.0se. Statements in the writeup about the 5.0se confirm that the 5.0 incorporates filtering of some sort, as you speculated, with inductors being specifically referred to (that are presumably in series with some combination of the hot conductor, neutral conductor, and perhaps even the safety ground conductor, on whichever side of the transformer). Without detailed information about the design I think that all we can say is that the conditioner **might** be contributing to a ground loop issue in this application. And as was suggested the hum should be assessed with the preamp plugged directly into the wall, with its inputs disconnected, if that hasn’t already been tried.

One other thing that seems worthy of note: The OP’s speakers have very low sensitivity (apparently 83 db, although it isn’t clear if that is on the basis of 1 watt or 2.83 volts; if the latter, given its 4 ohm nominal impedance the speaker is only 80 db/1 watt). So with speakers of average or higher sensitivity the hum would be much louder than what has been described. (In saying this I’m assuming that the amount of hum doesn’t vary as a function of the volume control setting).

Best regards,
-- Al

almarg9,232 posts

12-13-2019
9:34am

jg2077 12-12-2019 8:59 pm EST:
... the pre is plugged into a common 15A outlet; the amps are plugged into a dedicated 20A outlet and ALL else is unplugged. I still hear the same amount of hum.

I installed a "cheater plug" between the pre and wall outlet, I hear less hum than before, about 70% less. I cannot hear hum from my listening position (10ft) away....


jg2077 12-12-2019 10:14 pm EST:
I plugged EVERYTHING as before, with one exception, there is a "ground cheater " between the pre and power distributor. The hum is 50% less than first posted.

I tried both amps on the same outlet - no change.

Am I correct in understanding that in the first of these two experiments the preamp was plugged directly into the wall outlet, without the power conditioner? If not that should certainly be tried, as Lowrider had suggested earlier.

Al (almarg),
Yes you are correct the OP plugged the preamp directly into the wall 15 amp convenience outlet and he did not hear any difference in hum.

He then tried the ground cheater between the wall outlet and the preamp. He lowered the hum by 70%. That tells me indeed he has a ground loop that is caused by a difference of potential between the equipment ground at the convenience wall outlet and the Krell amps 20 amp dedicated branch circuit outlets equipment ground.

Almarg said:

Without detailed information about the design I think that all we can say is that the conditioner **might** be contributing to a ground loop issue in this application. And as was suggested the hum should be assessed with the preamp plugged directly into the wall, with its inputs disconnected, if that hasn’t already been tried.

Al, that’s what I thought when I first read this statement of the OP’s.

jg2077 12-12-2019 10:14 pm EST:
I plugged EVERYTHING as before, with one exception, there is a "ground cheater " between the pre and power distributor. The hum is 50% less than first posted.

70% less hum to 50% less using the power conditioner? That don’t make any sense. Then I went back and reread what the OP said.

I plugged EVERYTHING as before, with one exception, there is a "ground cheater " between the pre and power distributor. "

" I plugged EVERYTHING as before," ........ As in all the other equipment he had plugged into power conditioner originally before he started troubleshooting for his hum problem.
Well, that’s a horse a different color.

One of these is causing the additional ground loop hum. One of them, or more, has a 3 wire cord and plug. Also I would guess the way the circuit ground/signal ground is connected to the equipment grounded chassis is definitely different than the way the ARC preamp is done. Your thoughts.......

Phono = DSA
Tuner = McIntosh MR 67
Transport = ML No31
Dac = ML 36s


Last night when the OP was trying different things and when he plugged both Krell amps into one duplex outlet dedicated 20 amp branch circuit, I wonder if he could have been able to plug the "pure power one 5.0" power conditioner into the other unused dedicated branch circuit 20 amp duplex outlet. Then plug the preamp into the pure power one 5.0. Listen for hum, then plug in the front end equipment and check for hum. That would speak volumes.......

Al, I liked your idea about using the Jensen transformers on the balanced ICs between the preamp and krell amps. Not only does it isolate the ARC preamp from the two amps but wouldn’t they isolate the two amps from one another because of the common circuit ground/signal ground connection of the ARC preamp. Your thoughts....
Jim

almarg9,232 posts   

12-12-2019  
 8:26pm  

Some thoughts that have occurred to me after reading through this thread:

1) Since these amps are huge high powered monsters which draw lots of current and require a dedicated 20 amp line for each monoblock, I’m guessing that the electrician probably installed the two lines on opposite AC legs. Jim (Jea48), some years ago you had provided us with a link to a paper by Henry Ott and Bill Whitlock which explained that powering interconnected equipment from opposite legs is conducive to ground loop issues. And of course the grounds of the two amps are interconnected via the preamp.

Al, I think this is the quote you are referring to. For what ever reason the web Link no longer works

"Less than 300 microamps of ground loop current can cause hum as it flows in an unbalanced audio interconnect cable. However, harmonics of 60Hz that are generated from lighting dimmers or switch-mode power supplies sound like Buzzz mixed with a bit of Hummm and are more easily coupled by even smaller currents. Harmonics can add together when equipment is powered from different phases, so clearly there is an advantage to specifying same-phase electrical service to power the electronics systems in most cases....

Any leakage currents on the safety ground wires of split single phase load circuits fed by different phase legs will add together due to the 240V potential difference....

Power conditioners do not solve any of these common problems: Cross phase coupling (doubles hums & buzzes) .... What actually does solve them: Same phase power.

.

Split Single Phase electrical service is most commonly found in residences and smaller commercial buildings, and is commonly used to feed AV equipment. One key advantage that single phase has over three phase is that while harmonic currents are still present, it is not possible for the �triplen� components to add in the neutral. In addition, use of split single phase can result in at least a 6dB reduction in noise floor as compared to three phase if the capacitances of the connected equipment are relatively well balanced. However, any leakage currents on the safety ground wires of split single phase load circuits fed by different phase legs will add together due to the 240V potential difference."
http://www.exactpower.com/elite/assets/pdfs/theTRUTH.pdf

Jim

Gentlemen, please allow me to be COMPLETELY off-topic.
I am humbled by all the thought processes and the suggestions you have provided.  Audiogon is filled with back and forth banter, so much so, that there are many recent posts about it...However, you prove that this is a site where help and assistance is given/provided, Thank you.

@jea48 - Yes, everything was was reinstalled as before.  The one exception was the ground plug installed between the pre and power distributor (hum was reduced to 50% less of when i first posted).  It would be easy to plug the 5.0 into one of the unused 20A outlet, as would be to move the Pre.  Having to Move everything would require MUCH work.  Could I use a long heavy-duty power cord plugged into one of the 20A outlet to power the 5.0 distributor where it sits without moving it?

I have a Coda 02b preamp, I will try it tonight and check for hum.

Respectfully,
Jose

Jose, thanks for the nice words about the nature of this thread. Yes, unfortunately all too many threads seem to devolve into pointless, unpleasant, and unconstructive bickering.

Jim, yes, that is the statement I was referring to in the paper by Henry Ott and Bill Whitlock. Both of them being very distinguished experts, as you of course know.

One of these is causing the additional ground loop hum. One of them, or more, has a 3 wire cord and plug. Also I would guess the way the circuit ground/signal ground is connected to the equipment grounded chassis is definitely different than the way the ARC preamp is done. Your thoughts.......

Phono = DSA
Tuner = McIntosh MR 67
Transport = ML No31
Dac = ML 36s

Even though the MR67 has a two-wire power cord and plug it wouldn’t surprise me if it is contributing to the problem, given its age. Like many other tuners and other components of its era (ca. 1963) it has a small (0.01 uf) capacitor connected between the hot conductor and its circuit ground, and another such capacitor connected between the neutral conductor and its circuit ground. And given its 50+ year age it wouldn’t surprise me if there were some leakage through the cap that is between the hot conductor and circuit ground, which in turn is connected directly to the shell of its RCA output connectors and thence to the circuit ground of the preamp.

Al, I liked your idea about using the Jensen transformers on the balanced ICs between the preamp and krell amps. Not only does it isolate the ARC preamp from the two amps but wouldn’t they isolate the two amps from one another because of the common circuit ground/signal ground connection of the ARC preamp. Your thoughts....

Yes, absolutely. The Jensen PI-XX would probably be a good choice, used in conjunction with a very short low capacitance XLR cable (100 pf max capacitance for the total length of the cable) connected between its output and the amp input. Specs are identical to those shown in this datasheet for the two-channel version. That choice should be confirmed with Jensen, though, and when speaking with them they would probably want to know what the input impedance of the amp is (which I haven’t been able to determine). The input impedance should be at least 10K to be suitable for use with this transformer. The PI-XX is available here for only $150 each.

Best regards,
-- Al