"Musical" subwoofers? Advice please on comparing JL subs

I have two F110v2 and the CR-1. The e series came out after I bought them and I always had the same question. What makes the fathom so much more than the e series. I guess the DARO is the answer. Subs won’t do you much good if not calibrated properly. I used to have one F112 and the acoustic designer (acoustic frontiers) I was working with felt the DARO was a big upgrade over the v1 so that’s when i traded for the two 110v2. I was never confident in my ability to properly use the CR1 so I had him professionally calibrate. My opinion would be that if you are comfortable with calibrating the e series that should meet your needs. Adding the CR1 would be a big plus. If not, I would go for the more expensive fathom series since much easier to calibrate with DARO.

Merry Christmas Eve!
I have been following this thread closely.

northman:

I appreciate your question line, thoughtful responses, and how you reel people back on target.  I too am looking for a new pair of 'musical' subs.
I own a pair of REL Carbon Limiteds in my other system,  I love them. smooth and integrate well.  I want this level of performance and better.
My RELs's live in an easy room.  Big with open length, high ceiling, wood floors with wool rug.  I run Longbow wireless and use both a high level input form my mono amplifiers and a .1LFE input from a second AVR hooked up to a soundbar for TV.  It works flawlessly.  I get stereo music subs for music and augment the TV soundbar when watching.  Each are independently adjustable for level (not crossover) but the LFE .1 signal is of course managed within the AVR. 

Now I want to equal or best this level of subwoofer in my new reference system downstairs.  

First, a few comments on comments:

Speaker Placements and subwoofer locations:  I appreciate all the advice on where to position them, how to move them around the room and evaluate the sound and how 4 or more sound fantastic.  I make few 
compromises on equipment, but my room is my room.  I already gave the larger section of the bsmt to the model railroad, and the stereo area is what it is.  I can not move my couch back another inch.  It is 12 feet from the wall, with great space to the sides.  My speaker location has been optimized for this area.  I have treated the wall behind my head. I have a great spot for two subs, each located just inside of the stereo speakers and in line front to back.  My speakers are only 2 feet off the wall and image wonderfully.  So I think many people (most?) have to put things where the work, and repeated advice to cary my subs around is not practical unless I start digging a new foundation for basement expansion. (hmmm..bigger train layout?).

Musical or not?:  Please.  Musical means something to any audiophile and it can be individual.  But obviously we mean integrates well with a two channel system vs 'amazing slam' for AV soundtracks.  Inane to argue this point.  Bad bass is bad.  It has 'overhang' or is 'bloaty' or sounds 'slow'.  These are not physics terms.  so don't tear at them.  If you want to make a car bounce that is not 'musical' Does not have anything to do with the speed of a sound wave or the length.

Integration:  to me it means more than just getting the subs to match with the music.  They must support the music, and all its staging and imaging.  I have heard nice sounding subs in expensive systems.  When turned off, I can hear the soundstage widen and things sparkle more.
So the subs must integrate and support, and it is the quality of the crossover, the blending, And? perhaps the lack of EQ going on here.

External Crossovers:  I do have experience with smaller speakers and less powerful amplifiers.  And EQing the main channels to relieve bass information where a speaker can not handle it can certainly help. And it does relieve the amplifier of effort.  But this does not apply to all systems. My floor standing YG Hailey's have 10" subs in separate sealed cabinets.  My Audionet Amps never strain for power.  I run them full level with no EQ and always will.  YG quote's 20hz reach on the low end, but they still (to me) need a sub system to support the foundation of the music.  Stereo subs (to me) always enhance everything.  They just need to be integrated with great crossover and level adjustments.  When people hear my system they ask if the subs are on.  I then turn them off and they say 'oh wow they do add...'.  I know some guru's advocate crossing over the mains as well (Vandersteen?). But to me this adds another box and stuff and I do not believe all speakers and amps need it.

Remote control of Sub functions:  This is a feature I wish my REL Carbon Limited's had.  I find some tracks need a bit more, and some tracks definitely have too much bass in the mix.  My buddy has seen my arse too many times as I reach behind the REL subs, try to remember in mirror image which is level, and try to adjust with a specific number of indent clicks to equally adjust both subs.  Then later I put them back where they usually live.  The top two REL subs do have this remote control.  It should be on the Carbon Limiteds and the new Carbon Specials.  If I buy a pair I am sure the feature will be on the next year's model!
Many other companies do have remote control, usually through a phone app,  this would be a great thing, even if I only use it occasionally on individual tracks.

REL quality:  It is great.  I do not care if their value line is designed my another parent company. I wish every company was individually owned by its original guru. But alas this is not the way of the world. YG's founder and designer has sold the company.  Good for him.  Did it make me pause before purchase? Yes, for a minute. But his departure does not lessen the quality or performance of my speakers one bit. The fit finish and build quality of my Carbon Limited's is amazing.  Anyone can find an excuse to not purchase high end things.  

High Level Inputs; (REL, MJ, others?)  sounds better.  I have tried and evaluated vs low level preamp inputs.  Gotta have it.

Stereo vs one:  sounds better (looks cool also :).  Sure bass is relatively non directional.  Try this.  Go in any room with one sub.  Close your eyes and listen,  Can you locate the sub?  I can.  If only room for one so be it.  But we do have two stereo main speakers... and there is stereo information in bass information (not talking about LFE or .1 here).  Stereo subs SUPPORT the soundstage and imaging.  Not sure if Swarmy subs do this all over the room or not.  Seems dubious.

MJ Acoustics:  Looks interesting.  Uses High Level inputs like REL and has remote app control. 100% sourced and built in England (I hope that does not offend anyone). They are purists and as such to NOT offer EQ circuitry. 

EQ of bass:  this is the big decision for me.  My basement room seems to get a boom on heavy mixed bass tracks.  Do I have an issue with specific frequency?  I need to find out.  Everyone says 'Treat the room, treat the room'.  I am very nice to my room actually.  Ha.
Seriously, I have just received my microphone with usb input from Parts Express and need to download software and run tests.  Should I use REW?  I also have located test tracks on Roon so that is my project.

But about EQ:  sure it may help integrate the sub in rooms that need it.
I will hear back all rooms need it.  But EQ of anything comes at a cost.
Without getting into the argument of how tone controls affect sound quality, suffice it to say some of us are purists, and choose not to "mess with the signal" in any way that we do not need.  Don't blast this please. Or my KS cables :).

So if I could have it all, I would want a fast articulate (is that musical?),  pair of subs that I know where they are going to sit already, with remote control of Filter and Level, and ?  the OPTION to use EQ or not, if assured it gets completely out of the way when not desired.  That is probably a big 'if'.  they must have a quality filter that starts low (20 HZ not 35Hz).

Measure the Room:  I am taking this advise, because a lot flows from finding out if I have a boom at a certain Hz level.  If I do, can I trap it out?
I don't think I have the room, as from what I read I need sizable space behind a trap to effectively eliminate the standing waves or whatever causes the boom or bloat.  But if care this much I certainly need to at least measure the room.  Other wise I should just buy the JL Audio Fathoms, run the auto EQ and call it a day.  But many experienced listeners do not recommend the JL over REL, MJ Acoustics and others.
The microphone costs $85 and the software is free, so why not?

I have what I consider a dream system, and want my subs to match.
I wish I could compare several pairs, but that is either not possible or what a pain.  I am tired of lugging subs up and down stairs as well!

Sorry for my long reply!  I am as yet still undecided on what to purchase but taking my time.  For now the Carbon Limiteds do sound wonderful, with occasional need for level adjustment.  But they are gong back upstairs!

Merry Christmas!  Ken

I have both REL (pair) and JL.  Hands down, the REL.   They integrates better with the system and simply disappear. You need to understand the difference in philosophy for the two companies.  A month or two ago, TAS had an article that did just that.

Hi jaulbrich,
Thanks or reply.  I searched TAS and only found accolades on many subs...can you point me to your referenced article?
Merry Christmas, Ken

I agree with what has been posted in this thread, more subs is better, a lot better.   I am currently running three subs as that is what fits my 10,000 cubic foot room the best.   Each new sub added very noticeable improvement in smoothing things out, eliminating boomy spots, and making the bass very musical.   I also do not feel that in my case I need a 4th sub as my two main speakers are the very large Byston Model T signatures which each has triple 8 inch woofers, so the main speakers alone have 6 woofer drivers.   I installed an Axiom Audio EP800V4 at the left side position which is their monster dual 12 inch driver sub which stands around 48 inches tall, to the rear I installed an Axiom Audio EP500v4 which is basically a single 12 inch driver version of the EP800, and to the right side I put in a Bryston Model T sub which is a triple 8 inch driver, 48 inch tall sub; the same exact drivers as used in the Model T main speakers.   All of the subs are perfectly matched as Axiom Audio builds all of Brystons speakers and subs, even the amps are the same.

Axiom V4 sub amps all use the fully adjustable phasing controls which are a must.  Once I have my subs placed in the sweet spot of where they work best for the room, I get down on the floor next to the sub and slowly rotate the phasing control until I hear the best in phase presentation of the music content.   Its very evident, the bass signals just stop fighting each other and suddenly become one harmonious signal with maximum smoothed amplitude.   And it doesn't matter where you are in the room, the bass is the same.  It only takes 30 seconds to phase the speaker and once set, you just forget about it.

OP, if you have not purchased any speakers as of this moment, I'd suggest that you look at Axiom Audio and for your room size I would consider their EP500.   It's a little larger than your 10 inch JL's, but its a very musical sub.   If you can afford them, the Bryston Model T subs are fabulous with triple 8 inch drivers and I have this one crossed so that it covers the upper most range of bass into the very low end of mid's; they are expensive!  Like around $6K each.
But if you have a budget of $3500, I'd get three EP500's and place one on each side of the room and one to the rear.  Then phase them for the room and you will have some fabulous lower end music which will not be muddy at all!    Another important area to keep in your planning is the amps in the subs themselves.   Most all of the amps out there are class D amps with switching power supplies.  The switching supplies have very little capacitive reserve so if you are playing content with a lot of bass, they will top out easily and not give you what you want.  If you have a class D amp with a large capacity Linear power supply with a lot of capacitance, there is a ton of head room to let the drivers hit their capabilities without running out of steam; that was another reason I went with Axiom subs, they have massive linear power supplies (you'd expect that with anything coming from Bryston).  If you end up with just one sub, you will have a muddy swamp no matter how much you try to move the thing around and play with EQ or whatever else.  It just won't work out well.   I might also add that the real wood veneer Black Ash is stunning!  It's a nice satin raised grain finish which is just gorgeous.  My two main Bryston Model T's are in satin Santose Rosewood which too is the most beautiful speaker I have seen; but the Black Ash is just as nice in a different way.