My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
If you continue to claim that the poor quality of the YT videos makes it impossible to ascribe perceived sonic differences to each Stromtanks, Jay can set you straight. Would you accept his pronouncements based on his private home listening? Jay has invited anyone to come to his home and listen directly. Anyone spending almost $28K should do that--well worth the transportation costs to be present.
You say you heard differences between the 2 videos? What are they? Let's see whether you are competent to describe those differences. Is your listening vocabulary equal to your technical prowess?
I am excited to hear your assessment of the Kronos + MySonicLab cartridge. MC detractors say that MC cartridges have rising HF peaks. This may be true above 10 kHz, but most of the music is below that, and any HF unpleasantness is usually due to anomalies in the 3-6 kHz region where the ear is most sensitive. So try the cartridge loading at the max in your Boulder 2108 phono stage (I believe). When I was young and had great hearing, I always found that 47 kohm loading produced the most brilliance, detail and clarity. Even midrange material was clarified due to more HF overtones. Ignore the technical talk that this is wrong, just listen for yourself and see what you like. I forgot whether your Boulder phono stage gives you the 47 kohm option, but just use the maximum loading that is offered. The MySonic output is lowish at 0.3 mv, an asset for greater detail and clarity. Your Boulder has 70 dB of gain, plenty. Perhaps its 60 dB setting will produce enough gain. See which gain setting is best.
Perhaps your digital will win if you load down the cartridge at lower settings, or your vinyl setup will win at higher settings. I don't know. I hope you have both vinyl and digital versions of the same recordings.
@viber6 , can you really ask me to describe the differences .... when I have several times. Do I need to repeat again the echos, the noise pumping, the volume difference, the softness of one of them, etc.
I would go and listen to @jays_audio_labsystem and compare the two Stromtank on one condition. I get to switch which two back and forth, blind to Jay, i.e. he has no idea which one is connected, and he has to try to accurately determine which one is connected .... oh, and it has to be streamed live. What say you @jays_audio_lab, are you in? Oh, and we are going to do the same with some of those wickedly expensive cables and cheap ones too. Let's see if you can pick out a $20,000 cable against a $200 cable. What say you Jay, are you in? .... maybe I will even bring a <$1,000 amp and see if you can tell it from the Boulder when not clipping. What say you Jay, are you in?
This is like old WWF where in the end Mr. Amp, Viber and ricevs will form an alliance that nobody likes and everyone roots against ; )
Ricevs = Jimmy Mouth of the South Hart
Viber = the resident whipping boy for the big stars who just keeps coming back to get whipped, but his persistence finally makes them relent and let him join the team
When I was young and had great hearing, I always found that 47 kohm loading produced the most brilliance, detail and clarity. Even midrange material was clarified due to more HF overtones. Ignore the technical talk that this is wrong, just listen for yourself and see what you like. I forgot whether your Boulder phono stage gives you the 47 kohm option, but just use the maximum loading that is offered.
Ignore the technical talk that this is wrong? Do you have any more really bad advice to give? Well @jays_audio_labif you follow @viber6’s suggestion, you will end up with a system that is wrong. Without the exact cartridge loading for that specific cartridge, the response will be anything but flat.
This is what happens when you improperly load a cartridge. You end up with a hot mess, or a warm mess, but a mess any way you look at it .... and ask yourself how many audiophile setups are not properly matched and how that may be influencing their views on vinyl.
@viber6is obviously not going to be the one to teach you how to setup a turntable properly, and frankly, most dealers don't know either just passing down bad advice from generation to generation. Setting up a turntable in a neutral system (to match your DAC) is 100% science. There is no art in it. And being science, you need proper tools to do it right.
I asked whether you heard the MUSICAL differences that others heard, not the technical noise pumping. I don't believe you know how to describe musical sound quality--it is not in your vocabulary,
Again, your assessment of what is wrong is solely based on measurements. Jay will listen for himself and decide what is musically pleasurable for him, regardless of measurements.
Your good point is going to Jay's home and doing the listening. I'm confident he will welcome you on your terms.
@viber6how often do you need to be wrong. I brought up noise pumping and echoes ages ago. I didn’t even know what two I was supposed to be comparing till yesterday and I immediately upon being told saw that volume levelling was used making comparisons pretty much worthless. You didn’t hear musical differences between the two, you simply heard all the flaws (differences) that existed between the two videos and assigned them as musical differences as you had to map it onto your limited knowledge. That is what many people do. They try to compress things into the framework of what they themselves know. Others realize their framework is insufficient.
Listen to someone like Floyd Toole talk. Do you hear him use flowery audiophile media language? No, he talks in clear, concise and most of all portable terms. Portable meaning anyone who uses those terms knows exactly what they mean. You are forced to use non-concise language because you lack concise terms and in this case, are trying to map language onto something that is not there, hence creative terms.
The Boulder 2108 phono stage has a max loading for MC at 1000 ohms. This is pretty good, almost as detailed as 47K when I tried it with various phono preamps. The MM input is at 47K, but you would need a transformer to use the MM input. My old Mitchell Cotter transformer into a MM input wasn't as good as direct into the MC input, although people like Mike Fremer have tried MC cartridges with expensive transformers into MM inputs and have been pleased. Keep it simple for now and try all the loadings up to the max of 1000.
No, you are mistaken. Jay described the differences he hears in his room, which correspond to the differences we heard on the YT videos. We came to the correct conclusions--you didn’t.
Yes, the recordings are of mediocre quality, made worse by YT. Still, it is possible to learn the essential character of any component even using mediocre recordings. When you visit Jay, bring your own excellent quality recordings, and even mediocre ones which have musical interest. In the real world, music loving audiophiles want to enjoy the music more, both from their excellent and mediocre quality recordings.
Floyd Toole is a technician and scientist. Nothing wrong with his scientific contributions. But you don't know what he thinks when he sits down at home to listen to music. He might have a mediocre audio system at home, we don't know.
I don't expect anyone to come to my defence, but frankly it is not necessary. The issues I have raised are cold hard indisputable facts. There is volume levelling. There is clipping. There is noise pumping. There is a frequency response difference between the videos. There is a channel difference between the videos. There is high echo/reverb. Oh, and it is 192KHz AAC. Anyone with the appropriate skills can validate that. Hence I don't need supporting defence.
I will note again that no one has of yet come to your defence w.r.t. agreeing with the musical claims. Maybe someone will, but I expect in light of the hard facts I have presented on the videos, they to realize, as I have pointed out, that it is not possible to extract potential differences between the 1000 and 2500 (if they even exist) from the videos.
I don't doubt that Jay believes there is a difference. However, if all you are doing is repeating what he has told you effectively, then one must consider that you are not forming your own factual listening impression, certainly not in light of the flaws, but are being influenced strongly by suggestion.
Having now suggested a highly flawed cartridge matching scheme, I suspect others will be questioning the validity of your listening impressions.
I knew there was no way that @jays_audio_labwould have agreed to an in person listening session where his listening skills would be put to the test. I am sure you can reach that conclusion that if he could have easily picked out the better Stromtank, and the better cables, and the better amp, that it would be very very good for his business. I was willing to provide him the perfect platform prove his skills (and components) to the world.
I’m not embarking on the pissing match you both got going on. How about you both buy one stromtank (split the cost ) and conduct your own testing ?
I got a lot of things going on that move my needles more than what you both are proposing which would lead NOWHERE for me and my business.
Since I’ve released my last two 2500 videos, I’ve already sold one and two of the manufacturers (who i don’t represent) showcased on my channel have inquired and want to bring a stromtank unit into their facilities in order to evaluate it in their controlled sound rooms .
I don’t want to give out too much information, but yes my efforts are clearly being heard via YouTube and I’ve gotten incredible feedback from people in the industry about the performance of my system since I introduced the s2500.
You all realize a lot of brands follow me right? I just don't wanna be vocal about it but yes a lot of eyes are on me because I do what nobody does which is to display the ultra high end.
There is no use in responding to theaudioamp guy. He comes in with fixed beliefs......No way he will allow himself to hear any differences between cables, footers, inverters, amp stands, fuses, connectors, etc. He thinks all these things have NO sound. He thinks the only thing important is low distortion numbers, frequency response and room tuning. Please don't waste your time trying to "fix" him......He thinks you all are broken and only his way is correct......this is how the ego works.....define and defend....we all do it.....some just do it louder than others.
@ricevs please tell us with what you think is important other than frequency response, distortion, and how the room behaves in conjunction with the speakers. I will add in phase response as long as it is not too bad and we all understand certain sources have inherent limitations and add extra stuff to the music (that was not originally there) that colors the sound. I would enjoy hearing your explanation as I am sure many others would.
I think most audiophiles are not broken at all, but some of the most vocal have rather unusual ideas about audio equipment works and how we, as people work to the point of recommending very bad cartridge matching and ignoring significant flaws in videos to justify sound perception.
Please share your wisdom on what is important other the items described so that we can all benefit.
There is no use in responding to theaudioamp guy. He comes in with fixed beliefs......No way he will allow himself to hear any differences between cables, footers, inverters, amp stands, fuses, connectors, etc. He thinks all these things have NO sound. He thinks the only thing important is low distortion numbers, frequency response and room tuning. Please don't waste your time trying to "fix" him......He thinks you all are broken and only his way is correct......this is how the ego works.....define and defend....we all do it.....some just do it louder than others.
Oh I know, trust me. I have known this for years, considering his previous usernames, now all banned. Now he is back with yet another username.
@jays_audio_lab, I must say I appreciate your sense of humor. For instance calling into question who I am, based on the input of some random person on a forum, when you don't even use your real name for your audio channel. So funny. Please keep it up ..... but please do put a little more care in your videos. I would not want people to get the wrong audio impression.
@juanmanuelfangioii- You really need to worry more about whether you get respect here or not as you seem to care. Some of your posts are not going to get the respect you think they may.
As an audio customer, I would be more worried about the dealer who as Cleeds noted, equated a listening test to a "pissing match". I am more than willing to go to Jay's house, be on video, under the condition it is live streamed and I get to switch the equipment without him knowing what is playing. If any Youtuber who says they will invite anyone over has an issue with that, I am not sure what to say at that point. I was looking forward to a Florida trip, visit some friends and family and stuff. It can't be any hotter than where I am already.
I don't know why anyone would want someone at their home that has had over 10 different user names on a forum, and just wants to argue for argument sake.
The dog-piling while avoiding the topic is not surprising. Disappointing, expected, but not surprising.
Here, try a new tact instead of victimizing the messenger. Address the issues. The videos are faulty. Period. Cannot be disputed.
$250K of equipment needs further AC conditioning (with no idea what the AC looks like to start with)? Seems hard to believe. Some would say unbelievable. I don’t believe it. However, I was willing to go to Jay’s house on my expense and listen. All I ask is he listen too. Just listen. That is all.
I am quite willing to go on video. You have determined I am someone else, or 10 someone elses. Well if this is true, here is your chance to see me in person .... all you need is for Jay to agree to a live video and not being able to see what equipment is running. Come on Jay, take one for the team. NO? Thought so.
Also, he never says what he owns, what audio system. I have asked him under most of his previous usernames. He never lists his audio system, not even a single piece. Let alone posting pictures under Systems
One observation: he never attacked your thread until the very last username (deludedaudiophile). And now, with the brand new one.
@theaudioamp
People that deal from there home have to be very particular of people they let into their home. For Jay just to invite you in without knowing and trusting you would be totally irresponsible as a husband, Father and business owner. I can’t imagine anyone in their right mind agreeing to such a ridiculous request. Seriously? You’ve got to be kidding. @jays_audio_labBeware of this guy!
@juanmanuelfangioii: no worries. He has threatened me before (back four usernames ago when his username was Audio2Design). Be careful, he will threaten you, provoke you, to the point you will get back to him, then, he will post the screenshots of your selective replies here. Don't say I did not warn you.
Back then, the fake name on private messages he wrote me was "Richard Richard" 😀. Yes, two first names. Hilarious these dudes are allowed to do this here.
@rsf507 I have always expected that a lot of audiophiles that gravitate to a certain "view" are a little off their rocker. Now I am watching the sad proof in action. Perhaps it is the lonely nature of the hobby? Chicken and egg thing. It is one of the reasons I don't consider myself an audiophile. It seems one disturbed person is on a mission and since I had the courage to take a poke at one of their heros (in a purely analytic, non emotional way until that hero acted childishly), they are all jumping in now in his defence.
This all makes me think of the MoFi controversy and smile. Audiophiles like to be lied to and like to lie to themselves. It is all I can think of that would cause this behavior. They also seem to defend bullies? Is that some weird Stockholm syndrome thing going on or do they feel they are finally part of the in crowd? It would make for an interesting psychology paper no doubt.
You clearly hate audiophiles. We all know that based on the posts under your previous 13 usernames. We are all delusional. Sure.
But honestly, what are you? How can one explain you coming back here with the 14th username? It does not take a medical degree to understand your medical/ mental disorder. Sad
Jay, you put the " welcome " to me out there. I would have remained silent. What was in my words that is not the truth ? BTW, congrats to your success ! I knew you were headed there, from my beginnings of following you. And, we do not need to agree. Will you accept my invitation ? I do not want you or need you here as a " consultant ". Simply, a system I enjoy........Please, do not get me started again, and leave it at that. My best, MrD.
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