My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Audiophile parts and execution? So, Viber how do you know the parts and execution on the $27,000 Stomtank (2500 watt hours) are better than the Giandel $2800 system (5000 watt hours)? You have looked inside them both? Have you listened to them both? "way to go?" The only ones that KNOW anything about inverters are those who have listened and compared.......this is a brand new game.....not much real info out there.....but I trust my friends ears.....and his comparisons.
Here is a persons experience with the Bluetti......so how does it compare with Goal Zero, Ecoflow Pro, Gaindel, Stromtank and a million other inverters? NO ONE IN THE WORLD KNOWS.......at least not yet: This game is just beginning.....I am spreading the word as fast as possible. Remember, I make not one cent from this.
BLUETTI has a model that does not combine and the fan would also likely never come on. An audio friend of mine uses it and it is quiet. Newest top model. It is worth looking into. Believe it is the AC300. The lower model’s fan also has never turned on. The units are heat sinked.
@grannyringThat Bluetti looks like a pretty good deal if it works. Not out too much if it doesn’t work and still a nice thing to have around for other power needs. However if it works, Great! I like the additional battery option that allows you to move the battery only in a separate place from the inverter. I don’t even have terrible power now and no dedicated line, so I’m pretty sure It would give some improvement. It will give me an idea of if I’d want to go further into this type of power conditioning. I enjoyed the video on it. Thanks
So since we have been discussing the stromtank for quite sometime, i would like pause for a moment and talk about something we've never EVER talked about before: streaming content.
I have been communicating with a top audio industry expert who brought to my attention something quite interesting. I am copying and pasting and what i want is to hear your thoughts on this subject. This has been an eye opener for me and could totally change my perspective with regards to streaming going forward.
"Streaming quality is inferior to playing files from a HD, and it is always changing based on your current bandwidth. You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality, it is passed their control - think about the times you see Netflix/amazon and the quality changes) . A lot of the comments you get about “sterility” is due to that. You spend a fortune, not to mention precious time, assembling an incredible system, why would you compromise the sound right at the source?"
This comment above kinda slapped me in the face and it's now definitely going to make me change a few things going forward. Please comment !
Is this person knowledgeable about optimal bandwidth for music streaming? His/her loose logic isnt terribly incorrect but how music data is streamed over ethernet and its associated protocols is quite different than that required for optimal video streaming. Thats why high speed (gigabit) is touted (rightly so) for video streaming and why most/many reputable audiophile switches pump the brakes hard and reduce speeds to a steady and reliable 100mbps which is presently the optimal speed music. It matters.
At least on my music server, the sound quality differences between local files and streamed music from Qobuz/Tidal is very, very slight…a difference maybe but without a distinction….on par with the differences between exceptional interconnect A and exceptional interconnect B. It likely has more to do with added noise in his/her streaming chain…which could be mitigated on his/her system by bypassing much of the streaming chain by playing direct from a local file.
"It’s pretty clear you have some AC problems here. That certainly explains your interest in battery solutions."
Ugh...i was to go off right now but let me keep my cool...can one of the ac experts on here explain to him how you can you use s regular outlet on a 220v 30a... 🥺
I don't have time for this nonsense and i know there are a ton of electrical gurus because I see their posts occasionally.
I have been communicating with a top audio industry expert who brought to my attention something quite interesting. I am copying and pasting and what i want is to hear your thoughts on this subject.
"Streaming quality is inferior to playing files from a HD, and it is always changing based on your current bandwidth. You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality, it is passed their control - think about the times you see Netflix/amazon and the quality changes) ..."
He is pulling your leg, Jay! No one with any credibility would put their name to that claim other than as a joke.
You are right--I don't know whether the parts and execution are better on the Stromtank 2500 than the Amperetime/Giandel system? For the money of the Strommy, the parts are likely and ought to be better, but how does the sound compare between the two systems? No one knows yet.
I started to post on the other thread you linked at the top of this page, and first linked by grannyring on the previous page of this thread. That thread is growing fast, so those interested can go there.
When I tell you he is an industry expert, he is... His system and room are probably 2.5 million dollars.... Believe me, this isn’t coming from an internet forum member...
He is as serious as a heart attack... Owns magico M9 speakers...
...he is an industry expert ... His system and room are probably 2.5 million dollars.... Believe me, this isn’t coming from an internet forum member...
Whether your unnamed "friend" is real or imagined, whether he is an "industry expert" or not, the claim is absurdly silly:
"Streaming quality is inferior to playing files from a HD, and it is always changing based on your current bandwidth. You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality ...
If streaming is mediocre, wait before you hear your vinyl setup before spending another penny on digital. There is so much to try on your vinyl setup. Ignore the "proper" technically correct settings on your Boulder phono stage. Try different cartridge loading options for MC. Try the different EQ settings offered. RIAA may be proper, but try the other EQ settings--FFRR, EMI. The latter two were for older records. Try different tracking forces on the cartridge. I have used the lower range of the recommended tracking force to obtain highest clarity and HF extension. Of course, mistracking must be avoided, so use the lowest force possible. If you want a more bass heavy and warmer sound, higher tracking force will give that. Some people have said that the higher tracking force produces the least record wear, which is counter-intuitive. You can vary the vertical tracking angle (VTA) for different tonal balance. Raising the arm pivot increases the VTA, and will produce a brighter sound, although the bass will be thinner and coherence will suffer. Records are cut differently, so one record will sound better with a different VTA than another record. Forget the technical screams of you know who, and do it ALL by ear, according to your taste.
This statement: “believe me this isn’t coming from an internet forum member...” can come across as rather demeaning. Right? Good to realize that many “forum members” have great value and unique areas of audio expertise that even those with million dollar systems can learn from. Important to remember that no person, even the most experienced and studied in a particular area of study, can’t possibly possess more that a very small percentage of the total wisdom and knowledge available.
Right. No one knows it all. I happen to think Jay's Magico S7 speakers have much more articulation and detail than the M6 he had. The M9 probably has only more bass, and I probably would prefer the S7 to the M9. One of the few videos on the real flagship Magico, the horn, shows it to sound like a leaden elephant. So much for being impressed with expensive items. Some are great, like Boulder, but listening is required in all cases.
Yes, do what @viber6 suggests. Everyone wants a poorly tracking, channel mismatched, cartridge/amp mismatched, distorting, record destroying vinyl setup. Or you could set it up properly, so you can compare properly to digital and use an equalizer if you want a different sound.
I happen to think Jay’s Magico S7 speakers have much more articulation and detail than the M6 he had.
Always so fast with dubious conclusions 🙄 It’s about time you realize it is about the entire setup, especially when it comes to such a transparent product like Magico. You have not heard the M6 on anything remotely as good as what Jay has now. You can’t begin to speculate on the M6 sound, let alone the M9. Hopefully Jay will revisit the M6 (or M3)
Upon consideration a substantial part of Jay's struggles may be the "third-world" quality of his electric and internet service and he is trying to adjust or compensate for those systems faults, weaknesses and deficiencies of course I am just speculating here but the US is known for its aging, obsolete infrastructure so any of the problems Jay is trying to overcome may be very real so the batteries may be a proper, appropriate, reasonable solution.
"Streaming quality is inferior to playing files from a HD, and it is always changing based on your current bandwidth. You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality, it is passed their control - think about the times you see Netflix/amazon and the quality changes) . A lot of the comments you get about “sterility” is due to that. You spend a fortune, not to mention precious time, assembling an incredible system, why would you compromise the sound right at the source?"
Jay, Quite right. Streaming services will reduce their bandwidth at busy times and leave the carrier showing full resolution. They do this to prevent interrupting delivery of the product. And the passage of the signal through all the those cables and systems can take its toll. My local ripped files travel a few metres. Confirmed by an employee from one of the companies.
File this under, "things that audiophiles believe that are not true". Video is never sent uncompressed. It is easy to adjust compressed data up and down. They purposely use variable bit rate formats. Uncompressed audio is not like that. You can't strip data from FLAC like you can from a compressed video stream. And no, the Internet H/W and providers can't do that on their own either. That's conspiracy level bull.
Streaming quality is inferior to playing files from a HD, and it is always changing based on your current bandwidth. You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality, it is passed their control - think about the times you see Netflix/amazon and the quality changes) . A lot of the comments you get about “sterility” is due to that. You spend a fortune, not to mention precious time, assembling an incredible system, why would you compromise the sound right at the source?"
Agreed. In addition, I find some Qobuz files sound better than my direct to SSD ripped CDs. Sometimes my ripped CDs sounds better. Sometimes it is a toss up. No broad brush answer to the question of which medium sounds the best.
Improving my streaming with the Network Acoustics Muon ethernet filter, cables and switch has really improved my streaming quality to the point that CD transports and direct ripped CDs don’t sound better in many instances. It comes down to the individual recording every time.
The above video is with a cold stromtank that was literally powdered on and components were plugged right after it. Zero time for the stromtank to stabilize its internal electronics.
You again have poor reading comprehension. I said that the audiophile can do technically inappropriate things. It doesn't matter--he is after the sound that works for him. All kinds of EQ, tracking force, VTA settings, loading options are on the table. The important thing is that the audiophile should have a good ear to discern how far he can vary from what is technically correct to get a musical, revealing sound in the context of the rest of his system.
The odds are you have a mediocre system based solely on your fanaticism about correct measurements, and are a mediocre listener. If you were to vary the settings from what is technically correct, you would ignore if your ears determined that it sounds more true to life that way.
Regarding the Magico S7 vs M6, theoretically you are correct. However, speakers account for the lion's share of the total sound. My judgment is that Jay's system with euphonic electronics would still be more revealing and true to life than the M6 with his most revealing Boulders. I found the M6 dull, when Jay then had otherwise excellent ancillary gear.
I find some Qobuz files sound better than my direct to SSD ripped CDs. Sometimes my ripped CDs sounds better. Sometimes it is a toss up ... It comes down to the individual recording every time.
Same here. And that’s the way the audio world has almost always been, right? It’s the quality of the recording that matters most. Same as it ever was.
As for the claim that, "You just never know what kind of compression you are actually listening to (it does not matter what Qobuz telling you about the quality ..." either someone is pulling Jay’s leg, or he’s pulling ours.
It still sounds great with cheap power cords, but the music is different so I can't say what differences can be attributed to different power cords. YT is probably unable to discern the true differences, although it would be easier since the gain would be the same with different power cords on the same music.
I agree with viber6 that it would have been nice to have the same music on the last two videos. Still, I prefer the sound on this last video over the video before it. Can possibly make a good case for the Stromtank with factory power cords :-)
What's going on with the turntable? Maybe I missed it. Is it being used or is everything digital for the time being? When will the turntable be put through paces? Again, sorry if I missed it amongst all the other chatter - busy
I never stream for critical listening. In my setup, it's never as good as ripped files and definitely not as good as direct from a CD transport (44.1 that is). Also, if streaming files are ‘untouched’, why there is such clear differences in SQ between Tidal and Qobuz?
I never stream for critical listening. In my setup, it's never as good as ripped files and definitely not as good as direct from a CD transport (44.1 that is).
That's not uncommon. So much hinges on the specific components and setup.
... if streaming files are ‘untouched’, why there is such clear differences in SQ between Tidal and Qobuz?
Tidal uses MQA, which has been shown to be lossy compression. Qobuz files are unmolested.
Tidal files are encoded with MQA, a compression scheme. To be properly reproduced, they require an MQA-capable renderer, as described here.
While Tidal claims its files are lossless master quality, others disagree. Neil Young has certainly made his complaints known, and I think this guy’s effort is even more compelling.
So while Tidal and Qobuz each deliver files in FLAC, their files are not the same.
According to Tidal (which is in the link you just sent), MQA compression scheme is only used on their Master Quality files. I am talking about their "HiFi" service.
"TIDAL HiFi provides uncompressed lossless sound quality, streaming at 1411kbps or 16-Bit / 44.1 kHz."
According to Tidal (which is in the link you just sent), MQA compression scheme is only used on their Master Quality files. I am talking about their "HiFi" service ... Should be the same "CD quality" as Qobuz.
Qobuz doesn't offer a CD quality-only service in my country. I suppose you could find some of its CD quality files and compare them to the same titles on Tidal. I don't think I ever tried that, so I don't know if they sound the same or not.
@henry201, the reason why I asked is w.r.t. software. If you are say running a Windows or Mac as your streamer, then there is the issue of the app and whether you are running bit perfect. I have found it can be difficult to even be 100% you are comparing the same recording. They don't always make it easy.
I am still waiting on the cartridge and that’s why no turntable has been showcased.
Pretty soon we will be able to enjoy one of the best shootouts on my channel folks.
Thank you to everyone that’s helped make this a reality. There might be a special guest show up on my channel around October. He is a well known reviewer who will be coming to judge my system! (Oh oh 😂)
@jays_audio_labWhat pieces of equipment do you have plugged into the Stromtank? Would be nice to hear it without the Stromtank again with these recordings you used on your last video.
The 3010 and 3060 don’t need any help. Those you can connect with an orange Home Depot extension cord and plug them into your bathroom outlet or the outlet you use to power your Christmas tree in December.
If i didn’t have them, I’d plug in the linestage in stromtank too.
Things such as clocks, transports, CD players, turntables and phono stage should be plugged into the stromtank. I just don't happen to have a system that has those components.
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