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phono pre-amp being replaced

Hi guys long time no talk to.

So I'm reaching out to the community to get some feedback. I recently purchased a Lyra Kleos phono cartridge. Love the cartridge by the way. One of the best sounding carts in its price range and more that I have heard. With that said I currently have an ARC PH-7 phono stage. Love that piece also. Its very natural sounding and just produces a lovely sound. However in regards to cartridge loading its just not the best match for the Kleos. I understood that when I bought the cartridge, but I really wanted the Kleos so I pulled the trigger. Don't get me wrong the sound is amazing with the two however the PH-7 has a fixed gain of 57.5 DB. with the Kleos being a .5mv output I have lost about 8-10 DB of gain in reference to my medium output Dynavector that the Kleos replaced. I think the optimal gain for .5mv is somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-61DB. So that is a little background. Here is my question. I'm looking for recommendations for a phono stage to replace the PH-7. I don't want to shell out the money for the ARC Reference which is around $10k plus. I think I can get just as good a sound for somewhat less. So as much as I LOVE my PH-7 I am ready to part with it at this point to better match the Kleos.  So I thought I would ask. So any suggestions would be helpful. I'm looking for something maybe with variable gain or at least maybe a high and a low setting for future cartridge upgrades. I would like it to be vacuum tube, and of course have a very natural sound. So that should narrow the field. I have  been so happy with what I have that I have not even entertained auditioning anything else until now so Im a little behind the 8 ball on the available models out there other than ARC of course. May have a little brand loyalty there, but I'm willing to give another brand a try to keep things in my price range of 3-$6k.


Thanks in advance


-Keith

barnettk
three_easy_payments's avatar
three_easy_payments
2,097 posts
 
@wlutke

3 EZ payments,
I have the Dyna too but not tried it with the Herron. How is the (all tube) MM input with ($3K) SUT vs. the hybrid MC input? The Zesto looks interesting. Thanks.

I greatly prefer the flexibility and performance I get from the Zesto through the MM input. The gain increase really helps the dynamics while still sounding realistic and neutral with no coloration. The loading choices make a huge difference as well. Using the 22dB gain setting on the Zesto lets me select the following ohm loadings: 20, 30, 40, 60, 80, 100, 130, 180, 240, or 300 (all selectable on the fly while music playing). I think Dyna recommends 30 (or >30) and I find 40 sounds best to me on most recordings. Keith included a handful of loading pins and I think 30 was one along with maybe 100, 300, 1000, and 47K. I would never have known that 40 sounds best with this cart just using that array. I’m really happy with it plus I get the great advantage of knowing how easy it is to handle pretty much any cart I desire in the future. Oh yeah, the Zesto also has a mono switch to handle mono cartridge hum. It does this by taking the left mono input and sending it to both outputs.
Post removed 
lewm
13,056 posts
 
Apart from all else, why do you think you need to load down the Kleos to 50 ohms?  The Kleos is said to have an internal resistance of 5.4 ohms, so technically, it could drive a 50 ohm load, but 100 ohms is fine.  Higher than 100 ohms might even be finer.  At 50 ohms and below, you start losing signal voltage to ground; even at 50 ohms there is a little of that effect.  That's the last thing you want. Plus, high frequencies begin to roll off into the audio range, the lower the ratio between the load resistance and the internal resistance of the cartridge.  I'd advise against going below 100R.

I looked up the specs for the Mac 2600. It has 15 db of gain available at its high level inputs.  Your phono plus linestage gain is 72.5 db (57.5 + 15), more than ample for the Kleos, unless you have a really unusual amplifier that requires much more than 2V input for full output.

barnettk OP
410 posts
 
@lewm 

actually you are correct. 91 ohms is the manufactures recommended loading. Not sure why I was thinking it was 50. I looked at so many carts before deciding on the Kleos. That plus old age I guess. Anyway you see correct. I stand corrected. 

In regards to the gain. I feel that I have to turn the volume up to high to get the output out of it. For example. My reference listening volume (for me) on my pre amp is around 38% on the 2600. That to me is almost to loud. Now this is in relationship with my other sources and my previous Dynavector cartridge that was medium output at 1mv. With the Kleos paired with the PH-7 yo get the same volume I am at 47%. The C2600 attenuates on overall percentage as opposed to DB so just giving you an idea. At that volume I would think that with records especially you are further amplifying more noise...tube noise, friction between the stylus and the record etc. maybe I’m totally wrong here but that’s what I’m thinking. At that volume especially on quieter passages and yes the cartridge is setup correctly. 
lewm
13,056 posts
 
Look, if you just WANT to get a new phono stage, by all means do so.  Don't let me rain on your parade.  But for sure I do not see the need for a SUT here. You used the word "think", as in "I would think that with records especially you are further amplifying more noise...tube noise, friction between the stylus and the record etc. maybe I’m totally wrong here but that’s what I’m thinking."  Are you actually hearing more noise? 38% vs 47% is not much of a difference, but we don't know what it means in terms of voltage or db. However, we do know from those data points that you are having to attenuate the signal from the Kleos in order to achieve the SPLs you are used to, not a sign that you need more gain.  "Friction between the stylus and the record" is not a source of noise unless the LP is dirty.  Otherwise, on a clean LP, the friction produces the skating force and not much else.
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