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Problem with bass managment with many universals-

Hi all! I have heard of bass managment issues with certain players before, but I have yet to find one "universal" that has and good solution, or even slightly gets it right. Has everyone else just ignored, not noticed, or not found a good way to comprimise with one "universal" player in a system?
Here are my delimas that I have encountered. I have noticed this with most surround recievers and pre pros that are descent...When using the multichannel input, which one has to with dvda or sacd, one is limited to the non existant bass managmnet within the player.
To further detail: I own a B&K AVR507 and have tried this with 4 different denon and pioneer players as well as a yamaha that all are universal and have "bass managment"...
I own the dvd2900-soon to be modded, but have a dv45a and have tried the dv47ai as well as the dvd2200 and dvd1500 yamaha. Here is my first major problem. I, as many of you, have very capable front speakers that can play all but the lowest octive. I have a sub. I have tuned the room with the notch filter on the AVR507-if owners out there have not done this you are missing the boat!!! I am spoiled with the improvements this makes and it is "global"-in other words, it effects all selected inputs -OTHER than the dvda/sacd multichannel in...On this input, we now have to resort to using bass management that is generally associated with 5 year old pro logic recievers and is geared for htib/sub sat systems that has fixed crossovers at 90-125 hz and has no sub output at all if fronts are selected as anything other that "small"-even then the sound is miserable and makes putting hi rez stuff in sound MUCH WORSE THAN REDBOOK with the proper set up.
DOES ANYONE ELSE FIND THIS ASS BACKWARD???
Better, has anyone found a fix for this ridiculous problem?
I would expect this problem with a 3-400 "universal" but have duplicated the same problem with the Denon dvd2900($1000) and the Pio Elite DV47AI($900)!!!
The only "fix" I have found is to run the fronts as large on the dvd player, tell it you have no sub, and run speaker wire from the mains from your front l&r amp/reciever in addition to the LFE/sub cable so that your sub works when playing HI REZ???????????????SOLUTION??????
It is truly ashame when my properly set up standard compressed dvd's-with highly compressed dolby digital and dts data streams and not to mention Redbook cd's through the same machine absolutely smoke the sound quality of the hi rez stuff because the manufactures and or the studios will not let people manipulate the "perfect???" signal to make it work right for there own systems and or rooms and or listening styles.
Does anyone have any help that will fix my problems, or better will many more chime in just to prove a point-If these type of problems keep occuring, I will never want to buy any of the new super resolution formats, because my old tried and true one still sound much better optimized...
I guess this is why vinal keeps holding on, Eh??? Anyway, I have made the plunge to purchace the new machines that will play the high res stuff in a stellar ht/surroung rig, and so far have halted all buying of dvda/sacd until I can figure this mess out-worse, I am a dealer for this and am supposed to be selling this mess to the public and have been to my dispare-please, if any manufactures and or reps read this TAKE NOTE and make me the fool...FIX THIS!!!
scottshannon
customht
15 posts
 
Check out an Outlaw ICBM. You would just run all the channels as "Large" on your DVD and let the ICBM do the bass management. Its cross-overs are very configureable. You can run it between the DVD player and your pre/pro/receiver or if you have separates, between the pre/pro and the amp. It handles bass management better than most universal players out there, and is a pretty good deal for the price. The only down-side is five more interconnects.
-Don
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Bass management is a can of worms! The way I solved the problem is to tell my source equipment that I have no subwoofer, so that anything in the LFE channel (and in many cases there is nothing) gets mixed into Left and Right. Then my electronic crossover drives the subwoofers with the LFE signal along with the part of the Left and Right signals that should go to the SW.
goinbroke
105 posts
 
..."and has no sub output at all if fronts are selected as anything other that "small"-"...

Well, I've never run into that problem, but your rant is generally correct that bass management is a joke. That's why I don't deal with it. Set your front speakers as 'large', run a stereo pair of subs off of the second set of L&R pre outs, and connect a third sub to the LFE out. Don't use the crossovers in your source or pre/pro, but instead use the crossovers in your subs to adjust them to mate well with your main speakers. The only disadvantage of this setup is that you don't get the benefit of removing the very low frequency info from your main speakers. To do that, you can add an outboard active crossover to the mix (Incidentally, this is, I think, the best way to go if you don't have an extra set of pre outs.). You didn't mention home theater, but if you use your system for both, as I do, then select more musically inclined subs for the stereo pair and a more HT inclined (read: slam) sub for the LFE. After a little time spent with a sound meter to get it right, it works pretty well for me. Now if I can just find a decent, simple and cheap active crossover...

Hope that helps --->
bufus
149 posts
 
Wow, the advice about using 3 subwoofers sounds VERY expensive....and the interaction between the three drivers would probably be a huge mess!!!

Anyway, it sounds like the general advice coming in is correct: You should set your system up as if you have LARGE FRONT SPEAKERS AND NO SUBWOOFER. Then run the FRONT L/R outputs to the subwoofer as well as the front channel amplifier inputs. (Hopefully you have two sets of outputs on your preamp for the FRONT channels. Otherwise, you could buy two Y adapters to split the outputs.) Now you can adjust the subwoofer settings (crossover, output level, phase) so that the front speakers and subwoofer mix together correctly.

This method makes sense because the ".1" channel (subwoofer output for "5.1" system) will contain frequencies that are too high to put into your subwoofer. (They would be much more accurately handled by your front speakers!) With my system, I found that my Thiel CS2.3 front speakers were good enough in the low bass that I got the best results from my subwoofer (Definitive Technology SuperCube I) by turning the crossover as low as it would go (40 Hz.) It might have sounded even better if the subwoofer crossover could have been set lower since the Thiels should respond down to about 35 Hz. I found the best position for the subwoofer to be in-between the front speakers with all three speakers at the same distance from the listening point. This gives the most natural response. Have fun.............Bufus
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