Reel to reel

orpheus106,112 posts04-18-2019 1:25pm
Gusser, I'm looking forward to hearing about your results. Taking all things into consideration, 7.5 is the best (recording) speed.

Hello All,
My apologies for the late follow up.  A family member passed away and it's been a rough road to recovery, but time heals all wounds and getting better every day.  Music is a universal tonic and has helped to ease my loss significantly through new musical discovery and distraction.

So,.. on to the comparo. 

Well, I received my 15ips master dupe.  Please, don't laugh (much) at my choice of albums..In the defense of my choice I offer the following points.......
Point 1.  it has relevance as I am a bassist and the bass player in this band (Deon Estus) is exceptional and prominent in the rock/pop scene of the 80's.  .
Point 2. the band I was in at the time covered a few of the tunes so I am intimately familiar with the music and know it quite well.
Point 3.  I now have 3 different media sources to compare... the cd, the LP and the 15ips master dupe.  The CD and LP being purchased new back in the day at 80's prices.
Point 4.  The vendor had a springtime sale with free shipping from overseas.      

The album?  Wham!  Make it big....

Ok...I'll wait for the snickering to subside............................

Before I started the comparo of the Wham album, I played a 7" demo tape graciously included by the seller.   I did not recognize the song (still don't know the name of the title) nor the band so had to inquire to the seller who it was.  Much to my surprise, it was Boy George and Culture club. (yup, more pop. Sorry) The bass (a fretless) was so rich and powerful.  Strings, guitars, all instruments were dynamic..Voices .felt like I was in the studio with them. I was in awe...So now my appetite has been whetted (sp?) for the main event comparo.

I loaded the cd into my Cambridge Azure CD player, the LP on my VPI Classic 3 tt and the 10'5" reel (Side A, tape 1 of two tapes) onto the Otari.  I started each one in sequence then sat down with the Yamaha A-S2100's remote in hand.  

To cut to the main take away...The amazing revelation in all this?  I paraphrase Harry Westfield of VPI turntable fame when he described his then-new belt driven Avenger Reference multi-tone arm capable TT, comparing it to an Ampex ATR-102, which he uses extensively as a reference source when designing and testing his TT creations.  

"I am very pleased with the results. I have compared many 45 RPM records to 15 ips 1/2 track tape masters on a Mike Spitz modified Ampex ATR-102, and will not shy away from saying it is 95% direct drive sound for a lot less money and a lot easier repair or replacement."

Again, I paraphrase, and the quote and how it relates to this comparo is a bit of a stretch.  BUT.  That is Exactly how I now feel about LP's (if they are mixed properly and pressed using quality vinyl with high-end lacquers) as compared to a Master dupe....  The 15ips master dupe was amazing in all categories.  BUT, the LP, regardless of the fact it was a 33 1/3 rpm version, rather than a more dynamic 45 rpm version that Harry would have used (fairly sure they didn't make one), has 95% of the Dynamics of the tape.  

But oh, what that extra 5% means to my ears!  Both the Tape AND the LP were so dynamic and revealing, I would have been hard-pressed to differentiate between the two in a blind test comparo.  However, the better sound quality of the tape is undeniable.  Using half of the 1/4" tape's real estate for increased bandwidth provides sonics far superior to any of my 1/4 track tapes.  No doubt.  And the science backs up the audible results

Now please remember I have only listened to the tape once, and only side A. The tape may exceed the LP quality by more than 5%, but only more extensive listening will reveal that.  

The CD?  The mixing engineer should be publicly flogged... absolutely horrible.  Yes, it was produced when CD's were in their infancy and there are some outstanding CD's out there, but this is not one of them. After this comparo, this CD will be stuck far in the back of the CD storage unit, probably never to be played again, unless another comparo is required.  

It was great fun toggling between the 3 sources with the yammie's remote.  And yes, if I could afford $200 (on sale, free shipping from Russia, or the $450+ charged by a USA provider) on a regular basis, I would embrace this media with open arms...but alas, the discretionary income is not there.  Even buying 5 tapes at a 20% discount for $1000 plus shipping is a bit much.  I would prefer to save my pennies for a multi arm capable TT now that I know that my aging ears just can't tell the difference between a high quality audiophile LP and the Master Tape dupe.   

Another benefit of this comparo?  I can say with conviction, the Otari purchase was worth every penny and Master Tape dupe's provide the ultimate in quality listening to the well-heeled R2R owner and music aficionado.  I have heard the two media's side by side, and I have come to the conclusion that LP's can be, as Harry says, 95% of the Master Tape Played on an  Ampex ATR-102, IF the TT is well designed and the LP pressings are of high quality.  So I will save the thousands of $ I would have spent on master tape dupes and save for a multi tonearm capable TT in which to play my growing LP collection.  I will also add a mono tonearm/cartridge to the mix so I can play my mono Beatles LP set the way it was meant to be played (sounds weak when played with a stereo cart).  And a select number of tunes from the LP's will then be recorded with the Otari.  I will continue to purchase master dupes from my overseas provider when funds allow.  I am hooked, without question.  But that part of my collection will grow at a far slower pace than my LP collection.

As Orpheus 10 does, I will use my coveted Otari MX505Bii2 to play the Wham tape and record only my favorite selections from my LP collection at 7.5 ips onto recording the masters SMI911 tape as a compilation collection.  Yeah, I could do it digitally if I had the gear, but something about those 10.5" reels turning at any speed just makes the experience so much more enjoyable,.... similar to the feeling I get when I see the reflection of my bright blue LED tt light projected on the ceiling of the spinning disc when I play an LP.  I have nearly 5tb of hirez music files compliments of an audiophile friend that can be accessed somewhat easily via my SSD ASUS laptop connected to one of 3 stand alone multi-terabyte hard drives, but I get the most joy out of playing R2R tapes, without question, with LP's a close second. 

I am all the wiser as a result of this comparo.  I can now say been there, done that, gonna buy the t-shirt, But I am certainly not an expert. If I have left any important info that would be helpful to those considering entering the ranks of purchasing a capable R2R and pre-recorded Master Tape Duplicates, Please post your questions, and I will do my best to answer them. If not, then perhaps our board members can fill in the blanks I created.  IIRC, isn't that what the OP was looking for?  I am hopeful he (and everyone else) found this comparo helpful. 

Happy listening.
gusser



 

First,I want to offer my sincere condolences for your loss, it's a numbing experience we have all been through.

I enjoyed reading your post, it tracked with my own experiences, minus the master dupe tapes (too rich for my blood). I also concur with 7.5 IPS for recording records.

Always a joy to read about another R2R enthusiast's happy experiences.

Thank you for your kind words Orpehius.  It was my mom and she is missed. She did not suffer and we are thankful for that.

Glad you enjoyed my detailed post.  Perhaps a bit too detailed for most.

Well, here is part 2.  And unfortunately, it doesn't go well...

I played the B side of the Wham tape last night.  Side A has the better songs, with the exception of Careless Whisper, the highest rated song on the album.  It's also the last song on the B side.

About 2 minutes into the song, I heard an abrupt bump in the left channel, then, a brief drop out, then a return to normal fidelity.  5 seconds later, a repeat of the same occurrence, but less severe.  The rest of the song was artifact free.  Such a disappointing discovery after what was a wonderful experience up to this point.

I have reached out to the vendor.  I will make a video recording of the defect and forward to them.  I am quite sure the noise does not occur in the LP or Cd, but I will do a comparison tonight to be sure.  I am only speculating as I am far from being an expert, but I would guess there is a defect in the tape where the artifacts occur.  The rest of the recording, both A and B tapes, are stellar.  Pity.... How the vendor handles this will determine the longevity of my interest in this format.

Stay tuned.
Happy listening.
g

I reached out to the vendor and they promptly responded, offering to replace the defective Side B tape.  They are a husband/wife team and she assured me her Husband listened to the master tape and confirmed the master is perfect, so the audio artifacts occurred during the duplication.  They are sending me a replacement without proof of the defect.  She did ask if I wanted it shipped now or with my next order.  I deferred the order as I want to see if the replacement tape is perfect as it should be before ordering more.  My next order, when funds allow, will be a 5 tape order which provides a 20% discount, but I am a long way from placing it.  As I mentioned earlier, the $1000 can be better spend towards a dual tonearm TT at this time.

Note:  Since it's the holiday weekend and I didn't have to worry about sleeping late today, I took the time to compare the LP and Tape's B side.
As a result, I would change my rating a bit and rate the LP at 90% in sonic quality compared to the tape.  I noticed the signal was not as strong as Side A was, referencing the VU meters on my Yamaha A-S2100.  This may be due to Side B of the album was not as good as side A, which may have been an early indicator that the Side B dupe was defective.  The lacking signal strength of Side B would be less noticeable when played side by side with the LP.  However, the comparo disproved this, sounding pretty darn good, comparable to the Side A comparo I did almost a month ago before traveling for work

The one thing I did differently this time was I matched (as closely as possible) the signal strength of the Phono Preamp (Avid Pulsus) to the Otari using the VU meters on the Yammie.  However the same could be accomplished using the VU meters on the Otari, switching from "source" to "tape".  Even though the two signals were very close, the Tape STILL provided better sonics AND a higher signal level... amazing what that little tape can do.  I remain impressed, and although I previously stated I would pursue increasing my LP collection settling only for high-quality pressings in both stereo and mono, as well as be on the lookout for a dual tonearm stereo/mono capable TT, I was reminded how good 15ips tape really is!  As funds allow, I may pursue adding to my collection of master tape dupes, but as Orpheus10 stated, that he only records on tape his most select LP's, I would only purchase a very select number of Master Tape dupes, and those would be very special albums. 

One thing I should mention about LP's on my system... the VPI Classic 3 with the Avid Pulsus phono preamp is a formidable combo.  I cite as an example:  I am a big fan of the Rick and Morty cartoon series.  Granted, it is a bit vulgar at times, but any cartoon fan can appreciate the imagination that goes into this series.  One thing fans of the show have come to appreciate, is the music soundtrack of the first two seasons i quite good... in fact, audiophile good!  As a birthday present, my daughters gave me the Collectors edition of the series soundtrack.  I decided to play LP #1 of 2 after the Wham tape.  Well, I was absolutely stunned at the sounds that emanated from the Goldenear Triton 1's...  Every song was crisp and clear, with the bass thumping in my chest like a second heartbeat during the more techno numbers.  Sub-bass slides were smooth and effortless for the VPI TT.  I had it in my mind that LP's were somewhat restricted in bass reproduction due to limits in the groove to be able to accommodate the shape of the bass frequencies in the groove structure.  ???  Well, this LP recording proves to me that is a bunch of hooey.  I would assume (probably shouldn't do that) that this LP was recorded digitally by the contemporary groups the contributed to this album and that the digital version was cut into a lacquer, skipping the master tape step. If the LP is so limited, how could such wonderful sounds come out of that lowly piece of vinyl?  In this situation, IF there was a Master Tape of this LP, it is beyond me to imagine how much better a tape version of this LP could be any better.  As I stated before, an LP properly mixed and mastered, pressed on quality vinyl by a quality lacquer is hard to beat, being trumped only by the Master/Safety Master of the original recording.  Perhaps the next test should be a side by side comparo of the Rick and Morty LP to the included MP3 download?  Nah, we already know MP3's are a lossy format, far too inferior to even the LP, let alone a Master Tape.  Besides, this is the reel to reel forum... please forgive my digression.

The bottom line, referring to the OP's initial inquiry:  The Otari MX5050Bii2 is a worthy deck to play Master Tape duplications and is certainly worth the cost of admission if you can find one that has been refurbed properly and has not been abused.  If you are in the market for one, let me know and I will put you in touch with my Otari guy.  

happy listening,
gusser