Arkio, you are probably right about your last sentence, but if your Chinese gear comes from a reputable US importer such as VAS audio for Cayin, then they do stand behind their products. I had a remote controlled that needed to be exchanged - no problems and no questions asked, and all with a smile.
As for Sim Audio, try to find my post in this Audiogon thread, under the name of juaudio:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1144542394&read&keyw&zzdealer
Regretfully, you can probably wipe your's too with Sim's warranty, or at the very least, you should be in for a trying experience should you require any warranty - or respect, as I have, with no results. Beleive me, the fact that a manufacturer is located in North America should not to be taken as an automatic guarantee of good service, when in fact some manufacturers take our good patronage for granted, as Sim Audio did.
My experience is of course, an isolated event...or is it ? |
I've had the I-7 in my system for over a month & it is the best sounding integrated amp I've ever heard. It has awakened my B&W nautilus 803s speakers & reinvigorated my interest in audio. The soundstage is absolutely huge , the bass is unbelieveable & the seperation between instruments is astonishing. Whether I spin vinyl or CD I'm delighted with everything I've heard so far. It does take lots of breakin & it runs very hot, but thats not a bad thing in Canada in the winter. You couldn't pry this amp from my cold dead hands. |
A response to Juaudio: there is no way that an importer, even a reputable one, will support a Chinese product the way you say. If, 6 years down the road, you need service and the importer is no longer the same one, you're screwed. If the factory that built the unit in China, which builds amplifiers today, and coffee makers for Cuisinart tomorrow, is out of parts, you're SOL. But this is built into the price you paid for the unit - that is, the service you'll get. Sim, for example, has a 10 year warranty, but you have to buy it new. Even if the machine is 3 months old, and you buy it used, according to Sim, you're SOL on warranty if there is a problem. Oh, sure, they'll fix it promptly and charge you, the only difference is that it won't be free, but the quality of service is still there. Unfortunately, the days of transferrable warranties are dying, because it costs companies a lot of money and does not support their retailers. I understand that. If we shop used, we pay the used price and get the used level of service. If we buy new, it's only better. The only way out is to sell new units at a higher price, to cover the misc costs of lost sales due to transferrable warranties. Many companies won't do that, out of integrity. They don't want to make you pay a premium for something that is uncertain, that may never happen. I respect that. That's why I buy new, but I will buy used if the price is very low, but with the full knowledge that if anything happens, it's out of my pocket. That's the mark of a good company, that lays all their cards on the table.
Now, onto the issue of sound - we all have to realize that our comments are born out of personal preference. If you like tubes, for example, chances are you'll hate Krell. If you like your music served up sounding like the real thing (i.e. adjectives like warm and sweet don't apply to a live performance), then chances are high you'll forget tubes - there is just too much harmonic richness in that sound, although pleasant, but sounds nothing like the real thing. This is engineering fact, not voodoo. There are a few exceptions in both cases, but I'm talking the vast majority here, not exceptions. So, if one guy likes the Moon i-7 and another hates it, it's probably because of personal preferences, not which is better. I listen to music, not measure it, just like user RKoh said, but I like to know that what I'm listening through is equipment that has taken a general step forward towards more accurate sound reproduction, not sideways towards a more euphonically pleasing, yet colored sound. The latter is an insult to technology, and IMO, should not be pursued, despite the fact that most manufacturers represent their products that way, through proclaiming these qualities and others irrelevant to real music as abundant in their products. For buyers of these products, IMO, you'll always be in the dark, and the industry is unfortunately not helping and mostly at fault. |
Audio4ever, you raise some interesting points, although I do not agree with a few of your comments such as : '' adjectives like warm and sweet don't apply to a live performance ''
I find this statement quite incredible actually.
Sorry to be blunt, but this is highly subjective and probably means that either you do not get out to hear live music much, or that you put every live performance in the same category.
Have you ever heard a vintage Martin D-188 guitar live?
How about a Boesendorfer Model 225 Grand Piano ?
How about a (name your favorite Italian or German violin here) for a live concert ?
How about the greatest ''instrument'' the human voice ?
Beleive me, there is sweetness in the air...unless what you hear is poorly amplifier sound that kills the natural beauty of such instruments, most often accomplished with solid state amplification I might add, if you attend a ''live'' concert.
There are numerous occasions where ''sweetness'' and ''warmth'' can be experienced in live music performances.
I once attended a live unamplified concert by the Dallas Symphony Orchestra. I was on a business trip. The the DSO was supposed to play outdoors at a downtown location. Fearing rain, they moved the concert inside at a nearby hotel, in a last minute arrangement. I was sitting front row smack in the middle, and was moved beyond words. Beleive me NOTHING compares to unamplified instruments as far as sweetness and warmth is concerned...
I of course agreed that everything is subjective - but understand that there are many reasons for one to buy expensive audio gear, many having to do with things other than ultimate sound quality.
I also smile with your mention that one may need service 6 years down the road, and that you may use this as one of the reasons for not buying non-North-American products.
Heck, even some local manufacturers have trouble respecting warranties even when buying new from a dealer. (Yes, Sim Audio comes to mind in this respect)
Secondly, honest now, do you feel that the average passionate Audiogoner will keep his gear for a period of 6 years? Some do of course, but in my opinion, most do not. And since most warranties cover initial owner, it becomes a non-issue.
Also, if I read you correctly, high prices, like Sim Audio gear, have a good chunk of the selling price going into the expected under-warranty-service-expenses and not quality and sound? That would make sense to me. But there IS a limit to this. Maybe this explains the high performance/quality ratio of some Chinese gear, where virtually all of your hard-earned money goes into the product - as the warranty and service issues may become non-issues over time. Think about it. It does not take a rocket scientist to fix for example, most Chinese cd players, and amps, tubes or solid state, as the parts are very often the very same ones used in higher-priced ''North-American'' gear,(which are no-longer warrantied to subsequent owners anyways) with about the same reliability record.
For me it comes down to enjoyment, pure and simple, all things considered. Forget tubes or solid state, or where it comes from. If you enjoy it and it's worth your money and effort, what else matter?
One last comment that may shed some light on your ''objective'' evaluation of Sim Audio products.
Under your user name, Audio4ever, Audiogon shows a total of 14 answered posts from you, each AND EVERY ONE concerning a rave comment on a vast selection of Sim Audio Moon gear: Moon I-5, I-7, Moon ''Rock'' amps, Andromeda, Titan amplifier,Moon P-8 preamp, Supernova cd player, CD-3.5 cd player,P-8/W-8 combination,and I'm probably missing a few.
Every single post that you put up on Sim gear sounds like you actually know these units intimately, as you speak from a high vantage point.
Now, are you connected or have interest in Sim Audio as a company? Or are you a multi-millionaire that happens to buy expensive Sim audio units every other Saturdays for you to provide expert advice on ?
I am not bashing Sim, I happen to not think very highly of their products and their prices. And this after owning (for real) two of their products. But I can respect that other people like these products and it's ok for them.
Sorry, but after witnessing all these glowing 14 posts you made on ONE manufacturer, there goes your credibility, or, more to the point, your objectivity out the window.
Let's give credit to Audiogon for being able to provide some tools in forming an opinion. Is this a great place or what ? Thanks Audiogon for giving us access to all this information ! |
Thanks for your comments - well said, I feel in most cases. I'm a big Sim fan, and as I mentioned, I used to sell the product a while ago, alongside Classe, which is why I know their philosophies so well. Things can change over time, as it has shown to be with Classe, for example.
On the issue of how live music sounds, it sounds...live. If you are listening through a guitar amp, you are not listening, technically, directly to the live performance. While it is true that a few instruments can have a sonic signature of their own, in particular the guitar in question and yes, the "reverb" or harmonic richness of a Boesendorfer piano, this merely makes the reference point. Meaning it sounds lifelike. If a particular piece of equipment or system makes it sound more lush or rich, it is adding euphonic coloration, as pleasant as it may be. It is nonetheless coloration.
My approach (and I say mine because it is borne of my observations and thus the opinion concluded thereafter) is that high fidelity means approaching the possibly irreproachable - a perfect reproduction of a live performance. However, it is this persuit that is what hi-fi should be all about, not how "sweet" it sounds, or how "round" or "fat" or "warm". When I listen to Rush, for example, those synthesizers and guitars can sound downright screachy, sometimes because the recording is not great (as is usually the case with Rush, unfortunately), other times because that's what the musician intended. When Neil Peart slams the snare, or hits the high-hats, the brashy sound of the cymbals is really brashy. I don't want to hear it homogenized and sweetened. That is not hi-fi, even it makes this recording more pleasant...it is not reproducing what is on the disc. I want to hear it as it was recorded. I feel that is the true mark of high fidelity, the persuit of perfect sound reproduction. Eliminate the equipment from the equation if its perfect, and concentrate on other factors - speakers, cables, recordings and room acoustics. Any deviation from this puts our persuit of technological advancement in this field into an alternate goal, one that is not defined, out of focus and deviated from reality.
So, that's why I like Sim gear. It may or may not be your cup of tea, and I'm certainly not the one to tell you which to buy. However, I believe my comments are both logical, and probably eye-opening for many. I agree about Audiogon, it is a great source of information and information exchange, as we are doing now. But at the same time, you can probably see how it does hurt many manufacturers who try to market their products to you through the many fine brick and mortar dealers out there, which are quickly diminishing in number, or changing their ways of doing business mainly (not entirely, but mostly) because of audiogon's ability to market products at greatly reduced prices...this is in part good, but also bad because we lose the (I feel) valuable asset of a good dealer with listening facilities and a cheerful smile. I'm lucky in that when I worked in audio retail it was before this website existed (also ebay, and several others etc....) so the retail end was actually better. |
