Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

if you study it, you will find that discovery begins with empiricism, our experiences of

As I mentioned earlier, I am a core engineer who got schooled by a few Japanese audio overlords. I sat at one of their facilities once and listened to a few iterations of some circuits. Guy varies the signal path distance... and the sound changes. A component he deems more thermally resilient vs non-resilient (external solution)...the sound changes . He had no engg explanation as to WHY himself. (Why Flippin why?).... But, he just knows...if I do this, it sounds like this or that, etc....years and years of accumulated empirical information by listening (in-house secrets, bizarre stuff) with no engg explanation. My closed mind opened a bit at that point.

Couple that with the fact that the human is a very malleable/adaptive creature...

There are DEAF musicians...clinically deaf (can’t hear nada) that play instruments. Can Majidimehr measure diddly on such a malleable creature? NO

Let us look at a less extreme case. I have been tied to a violin for 40+ years. I own a few different violins. I could record a progression on 2 different violins I own. You play it back and I will pick out which violin is which without blinking. Would Majidimehr be able to do so? No, he won’t, they will sound the same to him.

Deep went through a certain kind of adaptation with the sound of that instrument while Majid got stuck in a hole. They would all sound the same to him. His foolish self would want a blind test because he became the expert of my instrument after 1 hour of listening training he went through online on Harman’s website apparently.

He became the expert of me in 1 hour that took me 40 freaking years. Freaking amazing, ain’t it?

 I sat at one of their facilities once and listened to a few iterations of some circuits. Guy varies the signal path distance... and the sound changes.

So your eyes were involved in that experience.  It makes sense, right?  That the longer distance would make things worse.

A component he deems more thermally resilient vs non-resilient (external solution)...the sound changes

You don't know that the sound changed and neither does he or he would show it to you on an audio analyzer or scope.

He had no engg explanation as to WHY himself? (Why Flippin why?).... 

Why indeed.  Both of you perceived a change.  No question there.  The question is whether the output of that device changed or not.  This is what we are interested in.  After all, we don't listen to music through you two's brains.

The explanation is that our hearing is dynamic and bi-directional.  Your brain decides from moment to moment how much it cares about detail in the music.  Most of the time, it has to throw away 99.999% of what it is hearing as recording everything would take infinite storage.  But ask your brain to analyze things and it will then go into a different mode and listen much more carefully.  When it does, you all of a sudden hear more air.  More detail.  The soundstage opens up.  All of these things happen.  But they happen with nothing changes in your system!  You changed.

Once you hear that change, now bias sets in. You listen to the "before" system and the magic is gone.  You listen to "after" system, it comes back.

What is incredible is that even full knowledge of this effect won't make you immune to it.  It is so part of being human that it is just going to happen.

This is why we test blind.  That way, you don't know if a change has occurred or not due to randomness of selection.

When I first started to test Marantz AV products, performance was worse than Denon.  I asked the company why that is.  They said they have a guy just like what you are describing making changes and a Golden ear guy makes decisions on what sounds best.  I told them that process only works if the testing is done blind and repeated.  Fast forward two years and Marantz products now have excellent performance with none of that degradation through the methods you describe.

We (science) are not stupid.  Doing blind tests is hard.  But we have to do it to eliminate not only bias, but above elasticity of human perception.  

A great example of this: one of the ex-stereophile editors (now part of Absolute Sound) lives near us and he was kind enough to invite our local audiophile group to go to his house and listen to his system.  While there, he had a new amplifier for review.  Room was too small so we split up into two groups.  First group went it and heard comparisons of his everyday amp against the amplifier under review.  They come back and without saying anything, our group goes in.  We are presented with different music samples played by both amps.  At the end, he asked which amplifier sounded better.  Majority (not including me), voted that one was.

We come back as a group to meet up with the first group.  As soon as we got there they asked us which amp our group said was better.  Guess what?  We had selected the exact opposite of what they had!  Jaws fell on the floor in both groups.  Both were so convinced they were right.

The reviewer then said he knew why that happened.  He said that he played the amps in opposite order for each group!  In other words, merely changing which amp went first vs second, determined the outcome.  Not the fidelity difference! 

He was partially right.  As I mentioned above, it is often that the second sample sounds better due to us paying closer attention although this doesn't have to be this way.

I didn't vote as I mentioned above because there was no way to make a proper comparison.  And at any rate, both sounded similar anyway.

While what you experienced makes lay sense, and you were impressed by an authority that you thought knew more than you, what I am explaining likely does not.  But it is a proven fact not only in audio but in many other fields where blind testing is performed.

So I am asking a lot. I am asking you to put aside your intuition and limited experience and trust the science.  You do that to believe earth is round even though every bone in your body says otherwise.  No way do you want to believe that time changes with speed yet we have GPS satellites that are calibrated for this based on Einstein's theory of special relativity.  You have to trust the science in audio much like you do in other areas.   Otherwise you live in a sea of confusing opinions about audio.  

These are things I have explained in my video tutorials:

 

 

Let us look at a less extreme case. I have been tied to a violin for 40+ years. I own a few different violins. I could record a progression on 2 different violins I own. You play it back and I will pick out which violin is which without blinking. 

I have address this before.  Those two recordings could be shown trivially to measure differently.  Here, you all are claiming differences that you say are not measurable so best not to mix examples.  Even here, we would need evidence of y you doing this reliably.  I show how I can tell extremely small impairments in the second video above.  This is done through record of double blind test. Countless audiophiles failed that test.

Bottom line is this: there is not a single professional society that would accept the results of any non-blind/uncontrolled testing as you say you have done.  You claim superiority to the science but lack any evidence to prove it.  Only self-appraisals under an alias in a forum.  That, doesn't amount to anything.

@deep_333

Love that anecdote of the Japanese engineer : )

 Everyone has differently developed listening ability. Some just hear more critically than others : )

 

In friendship - kevin

I have address this before.

The next time a clinically DEAF guy plays a musical instrument, i want you to smack yourself on that low IQ CNS with that Audio Precision kit chassis repeatedly and try to add a few more IQ points to it.

So your eyes were involved in that experience. It makes sense, right? That the longer distance would make things worse.

Absolutely not....I sat in front of a couple of TAD monitors while a couple of snickering Japanese guys tweaked away behind me...All i did was time stamp what changed at what time....must be rough...being you hanging on to a sinad chart for dear life as your ship sinks.