Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

An extremely old test that proves nothing and a deaf ASR member saying he hears no difference...  That is all you got?  Go on, how about the old Audio Magazine test of amps....you can use that one.....look it up.......

Pathetic.....you will never prove your point......you just keep looking for crumbs.....We have the whole loaf.....You are not even standing in your loafers.

But go on.....find us more silly tests that are meaningless.  I am sure you can.  For those of us that listen......you are irrelevant......However, your lies limit peoples ability to get better sound.  So, you are a happiness limiter.  You will have to live that truth till you admit you are wrong.  You are a downer.....debbie downer.

How do you make your stereo better?  Listen and experiment.  Try things you have not tried.

How do you get good sound and think that you have incredible sound?  Follow the guru of limitation....Amir.

You decide what you want in your life.  Do you want an ever expanding stereo gift that keeps giving you more and more goosebumps and fun?......or do you want to feel ego smug and comfortable that you have the best stereo in the world for pennies?

Happiness exists every second.  Embrace it NOW.  You can be slightly happy and ego smug.....or you can be ecstatic and ever expanding......you choose.

Enjoy whatever you do......feel the love that exists....right now!

What a tragedy Amir's life must be. This appears to be all he has. I felt pity and then I visited ASR and all I could do was laugh. Imagine being proud of such an association.

 

@audition__audio ​What a tragedy Amir's life must be. This appears to be all he has. I felt pity and then I visited ASR and all I could do was laugh.​

You've posted 60x on this thread. Irony is dead. Hypocrisy is waking up ​

How do you make your stereo better? Listen and experiment. Try things you have not tried.

Did you experiment with AC sockets? If so, did you then experiment with AC socket covers?

How about what you wear? Surely sound waves hit them and the fabric impacts the reflections that your ear then hears. Did you try the effect of cotton t-shirt vs sweater?

How about orientation of the cables on the floor? What if you make zig-zag pattern vs straight?

How about what you ate that day? Surely that impacts the blood vessels in your body and by direct implication, your ear and brain. What foods make your sound better or worse?

How about testing multiple samples of the same audio device model? There are hundreds or even thousands of components in them. Each one has variability. How do you know when I buy DAC X and you buy DAC X, that the two perform the same? Maybe your DAC X performs great and mine, horrible. That is possible, right?

Do you have 100% temperature control of your entire system down to a degree? Electronic devices change their characteristics measurably with temperature. Even the equipment chassis and your speaker enclosure are impacted by it. The latter is impacted by even humidity. Have you tried to figure this out and come up with exact temperature your system sounds best?

How about the type of ground you have outside? All high-end audiophiles know that grounding matters. What if I have sand and you have loamy soil? What if it has rained or not? What if there is snow on the ground? Did you test and tweak all of this?

And where did you buy your gear from? Surely if it is kept in a warehouse, vs a store, vs temperature controlled chamber, it would make a difference.

What if you painted your audio systems a different color? The particles in paint may impact EMI. Lot of audiophiles think EMI is a problem. Have you experimented with paint then?

How about how much weight is on each piece of audio gear? Did you tune that to the nearest pound? Surely that directly impacts resonances induced in the case and its impact on sound.

I have a lot more questions but let’s get the answer to these.

So, all the high end reviewers were completely wrong all these years.....Martin Colloms, HP, Gordon Holt, Peter Moncrief, Jean Hiraga, Robert Harley, John Atkinson, etc. to infinity......and all the manufacturers.....to infinity....have been wrong....all this time

They have been indeed.  That part is certain as in all these years, they have not managed to put together a single, controlled listening test that shows their sighted evaluations are true.  None! 

On JA, he often finds measurements that directly contradicts his subjective counterparts.  But that line is buried in a bunch of text, among measurements that high-end audiophiles don't understand or read.

As to plurality of them, for every one of those audio poets of subjectivity, there are thousands of engineers who would laugh at any notion they have about audio fidelity.  Take Dave Jones who is the leading engineering blogger in one of his earliest monologs about Panasonic "audio" capacitors: