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Speaker recommendation $10-20K (with some requirements!)

Recent lessons of the developing audiophile:


  • Don’t buy speakers without demonstration

  • Speaker break in is real...but will not fundamentally change DNA

  • Really appreciate the wisdom of this forum!


I recently changed my old B&W Matrix 803 Series 2 with new Dynaudio Countour 60i’s. A number of you helped on my: How important is speaker break-in? post - thanks! The Dyn’s are not fully broken in, but I think I can see where this is going: They have great soundstage, detail, and bass. In comparison, the B&Ws sound smaller, thinner, slightly less detailed overall, and do not throw big bass. (The B&W’s are supplemented nicely with a quality subwoofer, but that still sounds a little more like component parts stitched together, than the way the Dyn’s deliver an integrated output).  


The problem? The Dyn’s are hard in the mids and highs, and my (aging) ears are very sensitive to that. I have some tinnitus that I usually don’t notice...unless a hard or ringing sound sets it off, and these speakers are doing it big time. Immediately fatiguing (unless the recording is just somebody plucking at a bass guitar). The B&Ws are pretty sweet in the mid-range and most recordings don’t trip my hard/edgy line. So, I WILL go demo before buying this time, but I am hoping this group can help narrow the search a bit, and I am letting budget drift up if that helps get it done. Here are constraints and goals, and equipment:


*Absolutely must be smooth and silky - not hard, edgy, ringing, brittle, etc. - in the mids and highs. Ironically, I tend to listen mostly to heavier music, but I care mostly about sweet and detailed delivery of delicate sounds, like vocals and piano. For say, heavy metal, I don’t care if the system reproduces it perfectly, only that it tilts away from ragged, ringing tones as much as possible.


*After that, I want a big, authoritative sound with meaningful bass, detail - everything one would want in a speaker, but compromises can be made.  


*Room Treatments. Room is medium size, does not have treatments, and it is what it is. It is not a dedicated audio room, so I can’t start throwing stuff up on the walls (WAF). (The room does have the benefit of being wood floor applied directly to concrete (with a rug), so at least the floor doesn’t resonate. And it has 2 layers of sheetrock in places). I will live with my room compromises, but the sound coming out the speakers themselves does matter and I want to focus on that.


*Prefer tower style for aesthetics and fit, but open to boxy (e.g. Harbeth) if that’s where I need to go.  


* Equipment: All digital inputs to ARC DAC 8 -> ARC Ref5se preamp -> Bryston 7BSST2 monoblocks (600W). I get that the whole system matters, and that Brystons are supposed to be a little hard. But this problem really started with the new speakers, so that is where I am focusing. If you really think different amps or something are going to turn the Dynaudio’s silky sweet in the mids and high, please say that with some conviction and support.


As always, really appreciate the greater knowledge of this community!



mathiasmingus
onwatershipdown
13 posts
 
Mathias,

Not dissimilar from you, I have an 11x18’ room with 9’ ceilings, and a wife to keep happy. The aesthetics are very important to both of us.

We have Zu Druids. Mark V, bought new in 2015 for 7k. I believe the nee revision extends lower and is up to $10k. Which leaves you with 10k leftover for a vanguard fund.
My wife and I are both very happy with the aesthetics and sound. (BTW, she’ll never say any improvements to the signal chain are happening, but she’ll wander into the room and sit and listen when there has been one).

I Demo’d at a show in ‘before times’ when we could still attend audio shows safely. I heard their little brother, The Zu Soul Supreme, at the NYAS. They were the first thing I heard after a very expensive Vandersteen room. And the Zus, powered by a Peachtree nova, just had me leaving the room with a feeling of ease that I didn’t get from the Vandersteens.

I’m using a restored solid state class A integrated, Pioneer A-91D, with its integrated DAC, spinning mostly CDs, sometimes SACDs, sometimes wax, and we watch a lot of movies on our 2 channel system. Zu prefers a lower damming factor. I tried a more expensive amplifier, designed to measure well, the Sony TA-N77es (I’m a vintage 🇯🇵 person clearly) and the Pioneer went back into the chain as it lowers the frequency extension and helps provide a deeper image. I have a very linear midrange. 

Lots of people will recommend Harbeth  and I will strongly second them. I’m saving for SHL5+’s to replace my JBL L100s in my bedroom. The M40 series are shockingly lifelike.

Final plug, if you’re interested in the active route, check out Kii threes. One of the few presentations I’ve heard better than Harbeth.
cal3713's avatar
cal3713
1,421 posts
 
Recommendations all over the place as is customary.

A few new thoughts and/or reinforcements.

1. It’s pretty clear that your equipment has been selected to maximize your b&ws. Any speaker change is going to be a bit of a journey because of that.
2. Given that you want to keep your upstream equipment, perhaps you could email Bryston and arc, tell them your story and ask for speaker recommendations? No one else knows more about good pairings than the people who make the equipment. Another route suggested to me once was to look at the equipment lists from audio shows. Do a bryston search and see what speakers they’ve been paired with when sales were on the line.
3. From everything I’ve read, the vandersteen recommendations look to be a good fit to your situation.
4. To add one more brand to the list... Before I read your full post I started going down the path of SET friendly speakers which might avoid the bright modern hifi sound (e.g., cube audio). One brand from that family that still might fit given your constraints could be Tannoys. Plenty of discussion around, but here’s a recent one: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/any-experience-with-tannoy-loudspeakers
smscott
11 posts
 
System synergy is more important than many people realize.  Your system was built for a purpose some years ago with the speakers in place at that time.  It is very possible that the components you have are not a great match for the speakers or listening you want to do now.  I have heard Dynaudio many times and have never heard them sound bright or harsh, although I have only ever heard them run with Simaudio or Plinius amps.  Neither amp is known for a harsh sound so that surely plays into the equation.  

Also, cables matter.  I did not see, and maybe I missed it, a list of your cables, but possibly changing those would have a positive effect.  There are many dealers who allow demo of cables, or the Cable Company has a lending library online.  You could try something like Shunyata, Cardas, or Accoustic Zen.  They are all known for having a warmer sound.  

If you are going to change speakers, I would be very careful with any speaker using a beryllium tweeter.  Rockports use them and have a warm sound, although I think they are above your budget.  Focal and Magico will likely sound bright with your components and music.  Sonus Faber could be an excellent option as they tend to have a warmer sound.

Good luck in your search.  
vonharaland's avatar
vonharaland
56 posts
 
Many speakers will suit you, but investigate slap-echo in your room. It is an annoying ringing clearly audible after a sharp hand clap. In my small room I tamed it with GIK absorption panels at 1st reflection points, including ceiling. Like Richard V. sez, " It's all about the room ".
bifwynne
2,206 posts
 
@mathiasmingus

Sorry to get off topic, but I couldn't help but noticing that you are using an ARC Ref 5SE linestage with your Bryston.  Being a longtime ARC owner, I surmise you may be presenting too low a load to the Ref 5SE.  

John Atkinson bench tested your amp and reported that:

The balanced input impedance was 10k ohms across the audioband; the unbalanced stayed close to a moderately low 7.5k ohms at low and middle frequencies, dropping a little, to 7.2k ohms, at 20kHz.
See www DOT stereophile.com/content/bryston-7b-sstsup2sup-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements.

In contrast, ARC recommends that the minimum load should not be less than 20K ohms.  In particular:  

OUTPUT IMPEDANCE

600 ohms Balanced, 300 ohms SE main (2), 20K ohms minimum load and 2000pF maximum capacitance
See www DOT arcdb.ws/model/REF5.

I am not sure how much this loading issue affects the SQ of what comes out of your rig.  That said, I suspect that the Bryston's 10K load may cause the Ref 5SE's low end to roll off a bit.  Not sure what impact the load may have on the top end.

Perhaps some of out techie A'gon members can weigh in.

BIF


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