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surface noise and cartridge/ phono pre questions

Ok, here it goes. I'm very green to analog but thanks to Agon, I have so far been lead in the right direction. I'll cut the bull and get to it.
I'm currently using a Music Hall 5.1se, AT140LC cart, Musical Suroundings Nova Phonomena phono pre with a DIY phono interconnect. I'm loading the cart at 50k, gain at 40db, going into a AE-3 pre. I've made many adjustments to VTA (SRA), VTF....etc. currently I'm at approx -2degrees on VTA and 1.46g on VTF. I also tried a Shure V15 IV w/ ed saunders stylus, never could get it to sound right to me.
I'm very happy with the sound now and I think it's really close to the proper set up. I have Alison Krauss "So Long So Wrong" last 2 tracks of side 2 sounding sweet!!! The problem....I seam to be getting surface noise and pops with recordings that I would think should be better.
My main question. I tried using a lower cart loading, (2k) obviously this is to low, sounds super clean, black and quiet. Again, obviously, the highs totally diminish. Any suggestions on a direction I should go to obtain this sort of quietness without losing my high end?
I'm very new to this and learning daily but if I'm chasing my tail with my phono pre, cart, tonearm compatibilty, I'm open for suggestions. The more I read on here, it's sounding like this could be the difference in a really good phono pre. I really like the sound of the AT140 and feel that it is a good match for my humble tonearm and system. I'm curious on what you guys think and suggest.
If this is not enough info, I'll try to give more.
Just a quick note, I just hooked up the AE-3 pre last night and It's really something else for such an inexpensive investment. Great match for my SET45.
1gear
nanbil's avatar
nanbil
40 posts
 
As someone has already said, clicks and pops are a part of the vinyl experience, I try to think of them as simple ambient noise much like one hears in a live concert venue-people coughing, talking, and moving about. A well designed phono stage will help but will not completely eliminate these sounds.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,806 posts
 
Kevvwill, all I can say is that you have to try it to know. Its true that a tick or pop is part of the LP experience, but it is also true that electronics can ring at high frequencies due to stability issues in the design. This will exacerbate the tick or pop event to be both louder and longer in duration than the actual event on the LP surface.

I had this demonstrated in spades some years ago. A friend of mine bought a Mobile Fidelity UHQR pressing and he was quite excited to hear it. He brought it to my house to play (I think he paid $250 for this thing so he was concerned that it not be worn, and trusted my rig more than his own).

The LP played fine. But the next day he called me up- at his house it was loaded with ticks and pops! We had the same 'table, arm and cartridge. The difference was in our preamps. He was using a semiconductor based preamp that used active equalization in its feedback loop. My preamp was zero feedback with passive EQ. In addition, my preamp was vacuum tube, but on paper anyway had 2 more octaves of bandwidth compared to the solid state unit.

He brought his preamp over and we compared- sure enough, the solid state preamp had a presentation loaded with ticks and pops, while my preamp hardly had any. Since then I have seen this demonstrated over and over. And I can tell you that it has more to do with feedback (active EQ) than it does with tubes or transistors.

The bottom line is that the electronics make a difference in this area, IME as much or more than cleaning the LP.
1gear OP
9 posts
 
I'm glad to here from Kevvwill and Nanbil that it's not going away completely on all vinyl. That really helps in knowing not to chase something that can't be reached. I know someone may chime in and say different and disagree with that. I've always second guessed it when some people say that their vinyl is as quiet as digital. I have realistic expectations. Bottom line is even when I listen to an album that sounds like a popcorn machine, if I like the music, I still listen to it and enjoy every minute of it!!!

Cerrot....That is a generous offer and I appreciate that. Unfortunately, I'm in California. Getting to demo different things in your own system is always a huge plus!!!
kevvwill
70 posts
 
Atmasphere, maybe I've just been blessed with only hearing phono stages that get it right, so to speak, because that's an experience I have never encountered. As I said, I've had phono stages do different things with the surface noise, in terms of where it is in the soundspace, but that's about it.

Interesting. And admittedly, I wussed out by getting a Grado phono stage to go with my Grado Ref Sonata cartridge. Heaven!
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
11,806 posts
 
Kevvwill, I have to admit I was quite surprised when I heard how dramatic this phenomena can be.

Turns out that it has to do with the propagation delay (the length of time it takes the signal to propagate from input to output, something that all audio circuits have) and how that interacts with feedback.

If there is a small tick at the input, it moves through the circuit with the rest of the signal, and at the output is fed back to the input, out of phase with the original. Problem is that by this time the tick, which is very short duration, has dropped in amplitude (signal level) and the 'fed back' signal may well be most of what remains. That then moves through the circuit again and the process repeats, with each iteration the tick loosing some amplitude and changing its phase. The effect is a ringing phenomena which lengthens the time duration although frequency is not affected.

Now if you have no feedback, the tick moves through the circuit without ringing. What you find out through comparison is that a lot of ticks are so small that they are not really noticed, but can be distorted by this ringing process to become quite audible.

IOW, cleaning is important but is not the whole story.
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