Tape Project Tapes

French_Fries, that's just the point. The Tape Project effort is not about making lots money. It's all about providing the highest fidelity playback possible without constraint and to share that result with the audiophile community. I'm sure the principals would like to recover their costs, but it's not about getting rich.

i still have to wonder if i was misunderstood- if they want to make some $Money$ they could offer 7.5ips dubs

I agree with Ken and Rush. The ideal behind this project is to get the listener as close to what is on the master tape. In order to do so, the playback machinery must be optimized to accommodate the effort. Tape project tapes are true 2nd generation copies of the master tapes. The tape quality must be high to accommodate this. This all comes at a price. Each tape is duplicated in real time at 15 ips on 10.5 inch reels on very expensive tape. The principals involved in the project are not trying to make a lot of money, they are trying to show what is possible in quality analog playback in 2008.

Compare this to vinyl playback: Yes it is true you could produce a product at a lower speed on less expensive tape that would sound quite good on most consumer decks, just the same way that there are many quality turntable/cartridge combinations available for a reasonable sum of money that allow the listener to enjoy LPs. There are also state of the art turntables on the market for those who are fortunate enough to be able to make that kind of investment. The Tape Project is aimed at those folks who wish to enjoy tape playback that approaches the same level the ne plus ultra in vinyl does, perhaps surpasses it.

The Tape Project is a specialized effort designed to ensure everything is as good as it can be from the machines, to the quality of the raw tape, the copying process, and the packaging. In time, perhaps there may be some effort to provide tapes at a lower price tier. Each master is licensed for a limited amount of time and copies, also at great expense. It is obviously turning out to be quite successful as the people involved are doing everything they can to keep up with filling the orders for the current group of charter subscribers, all of whom feel that the investment, paid up front by the way, is well worth it. I count myself as one of those.

Gentleman,

Please allow me to make a comparison of a vinyl system to a tape system.

The TT / arm combination will allow the cartridge to retrieve the information from the LP. Buy a $50K table/ arm and compare it to a $500 table on ebay.

Buy a tape transport for $500 on ebay, generally a Japanese RTR to handle the tape as the TT and arm would. This does not include the Technics 1500 series transport. It does what only the Sony MCI and Ampex ATR machines will do at 10% of the price, durability does account for much of the price difference.

The cartridge extracts the sound from the LP; pay more and you generally can expect a better sound. Tape heads can cost from $210. each for an OEM unit to $700 for a mastering series head.

You can have a good TT set up man set up your cartridge for a hundred or so. Installing a new tape head requires a re-calibration of the electronics for recording and playback according to the EQ curve desired. Aligning the tape heads in all three planes requires tape analyzers that are scarce in todays market, unless you live in the LA, Nashville, Chicago or NY area. Bench time is around $100 an hour.

Alignment tapes run over $100 bucks each even though they only run for a few minutes. You need one for each speed and EQ. It gets expensive.

Now to the medium.

You can pay big bucks for a re issue of a recording that will sound good on any TT/ arm/ cartridge combo. Better vinyl delivers better sound. It will generally sound best on the mega buck rig.

Tape is no different. The 468 tape now used by TTP will deliver about 6 db over ZERO VU. This translates to a greater Signal To Noise Level that a lower grade, or thinner extended play tape could deliver. The first thing I hear from someone listening to a Tape Project recording is," Where is the tape Hiss." ATR Magnetics is now shipping a tape that will yield a 10 DB over ZERO VU. It's not cheap but it's the best money can but. If you invest in the best of RTR software there is nothing better.

I'm listening to my LP's on a SOTA vacuum star that I bought from Robert Becker at the CES in Chicago who knows how many years ago. The music is great. I will finally finish the TT i've been working on for 2 years so I can compare the Suite Espanola on TTP 005, to the Decca reissue, To the CD remastered By Paul Stubblebine of TTP. I think the pecking order will be- TTP, Decca vinyl and then CD, but as Dennis Miller says," I may be wrong."

Tape is fun, it's a combination of electronics and mechanics. I put a CD in the player and it either plays it or not, that's it. A tape recorder makes me feel as though I still have some value as I can check the tension resistors, clean the heads etc. I don't see any labels that say, " No user serviceable parts inside, breaking the seals voids the warranty!" Translation- Ship it back to us so we can boost our profit margin, we'll be kind.

If you have a RTR machine, please reply. I'm convinced that tape is on the rise. The number of postings for RTR machines on Audiogon is three times what it was when I bought my first RS 1500 machine two years ago for $600 bucks. It was as new but cost me $450 to get it to Va. If you see one on ebay it will be much more.

Time for supper, it's 9:04 in Virginia.

Ken

i am not trying to fuel a debate or an argument here (well, not intentionally anyway). what i AM trying to say, probably not very effectively, is that a tape project tape for $300 of some music i don't like that much is just not my cup of tea, just as, if i don't see an SACD by the artist, orchestra, and piece of music i desire, i will not pay the extra money for that either. BUT, i fully support the IDEA behind what they are doing, which is to expose people (and probably to alot of curious folks that listen to the demo's at audio shows) to what music sounds like as close to the original source as possible. SO, once again, IF you make a copy ONCE REMOVED from the 15ips tape onto your choice of a 7 or 10 inch reel that can be played on (usually) a quarter track machine, hooked up to a perfectly good preamp or integrated amp, then YES, it would be a blast to check it out. more money to the distributor means more possibilities, more PROJECTS, more INTEREST, more people listening to MORE MUSIC. but perhaps i am mistaken in assuming that the tape project folks have any thoughts beyond their extremely limited (by definition) enterprise.
in that case i and thousands of other people (who dabble in the audio asylum's tape recorder interest group, or the yahoo group, and/or other people who have not taken their tape decks down to goodwill industries yet) will continue to have fun and experiment on our own, until unfortunately, the hardware and the software fade into obscurity. and those of us ipod'less folks are not going to be around all that much longer ourselves...

I want to respond here. I sympathize with what French Fries is trying to say and I think he was a bit misunderstood. If the Tape Project was going to try and maximize their sales vice making the highest quality tape they could, they would have released their tapes as 1/4 track 71/2ips. There are obviously WAY more people that have 1/4 track 71/2ips decks than people who own 2 track 15ips decks. The Tape Project has for the here and now severely limited themselves on their target audience because they are making the best quality tapes they possibly can, not the most profitable tape they could. From what I know, and I have run some numbers, their venture is not one you could take to the bank and get funded. The business case analysis simply doesn't hold up. You could not invest the money necessary in order to duplicate their mastering decks and slave chain, buy the tapes, boxes, engraving, paper, maintenance, and pay for the labor and sell these tapes for $200 each and make any money. If you could sell all tapes for $329, then things look much better.

As for Lp over tape, I still contend that a good 71/2ips 1/4 tape will sound better than the majority of LPs regardless of the quality of your LP rig. I own a VPI TNTIII that sits on a VPI TNT stand with an ET-2 arm fed by dual pumps through a surge tank. I use a Denon 103R cartridge fed into a Counterpoint SA-2 (all tube) pre-preamp into my Counterpoint SA-5.1 that has both line and phono stages upgraded. Most of the prerecorded tapes I have just sound better. Sound snaps off of a tape in a way that makes music sound live vice merely really good on LP. I contend that you can spend $500 on a quality deck like a Revox A-77 and it will embarrass some very costly LP rigs. If you have a really super quality RTR, my personal opinion is that no LP rig at any insane price will come close to beating the sound.