Teres vs VPI, SME, Origin Live, etc.

Well, I am not sure exactly how to respond about this "uninvolving" thing aimed at the Teres turntables.

I was a Linn LP12 owner for many years, and also worked in high-end analog stores where many of the turntables mentioned(Rega, Well-Tempered, Linn, VPI)were sold, and I've heard all the other tables mentioned too.

While my Teres isn't even anywhere near the "top line" models, my 245 w/battery supply provides much better "PRaT" and is much better in all respects than my previous LinnLP12/IttokLVII/Karma. I don't really even see the Teres lineup as being "a big jet black sound". At least not on my system. I find my Teres to be a "real toe-tapper" and find myself getting up and dancing around the room, when I play rock or pop music, and I'm riveted to my chair when I play classical and jazz.

In fact, as a previous "PRaT" fan, British TT fan, and Linn owner(as well as factory-trained Linn set-up technician, analog technician at several high-end stores, and analog user for over 30 years), I think I'm pretty qualified to address that issue. No contest, as far as I'm concerned. The microdynamics and macrodynamics which are where the emotional content of the music lives, is awesomely good, and really draws the listener into the performance. Speed stability is excellent, and conveys the time-domain info beautifully. The table has very strong "weight" and "authority", but isn't "sluggish" at all. It has great extension, and is not "lumpy" in the low end, and gives "crystal" highs. I really have very little criticism for this table, except that my 3" acrylic platter has some upper midrange reflections which cause a small bit of coloration. This can be corrected by moving up to the better platter, but I haven't been able to afford to do that. That small issue doesn't really bother me all that much.

All in all, I find my "lowly" Teres 245 to be an excellent table, especially at the price range, and I have very little urge to upgrade. I feel the same way about my modded OL Silver tonearm, and my Shelter 501 cartridge. Sure, they are not "the best in the world", but they give an excellent level of musical enjoyment which satisfies me. I admit that I sometimes feel "green with envy" that others expound about their super expensive TTs, with attendant super expensive arms and cartridges, but it isn't enough to make me go into hock trying to buy them. I am happy with what I own, and it gives me what I need. I've heard many rigs that cost alot more money that didn't do the job as well as my little analog setup. I've picked a spot on the "diminishing returns scale" that provided what I needed at a price I could live with. (High-end)Bang-for-the-(mid-priced)buck is my motto. I'm aware of TT "shoot-outs" where a little Teres 245 gave some $30k turntables some very close competition, and beat out many $10k turntables. That level of performance is plenty good enough for me, and I don't need to spend the extra $25k to try to achieve the additional small percentage in performance. If the Teres 245 was $25k, I wouldn't have bought it, but at $2500 I thought it was a very good buy.

I'll let others debate what $20k tt, $8k arm, and $6k cartridges are "best". Those are not in my purchase range.

Twl: I know that you are a strong member of the Teres Fan Club, your post speak about.

You don't have to go on the 20K tt for a better quality music/sound reproduction: for less money than your Teres you can have it: Acoustic Signature Final Tool. Why don't give you a chance to test this tt?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

This thread has been interesting on a variety of levels. I've learned that no matter how hard you try to do something right others will criticize it. About the only thing I didn't get smoked on was my opinion of the Illustrious.

The Teres project is unique in that it was a community attempt at great playback at an affordable price. Looking at all of the early tables at their website I can understand fully that some of the attempts were perhaps less than the current praise heaped on Teres. I've only heard three tables from their lineup, a 265, 340 and 360. In each case I feel that they maintain the PRAT that makes my toes tap. I'd own one in a heartbeat among a handful of others that are also "affordable". The great thing about all of this is that there are so many good choices one can make.

I too would like to see Raul post his system. Or, at least give us a verbal description. Inquiring minds want to know. I would also like for Raul to describe his scientific methodology in detail for correctly comparing equipment. The participants at the event I attended will do this type of thing again and may adopt some of these reasoned priciples.

This is my last post to this thread. I too get tired of the bickering that always accompanies someone's considered opinion. I offered my observations in an honest fashion and have described in detail why I feel I'm unbiased. I've lived my life in the face to face world by not allowing unwarranted criticisms to go unchallenged. While cheap shots here are all too frequent these forums provide enough information to warrant staying around.

Raul, I have no aversion to auditioning a Final Tool, or any other turntable. I like to audition equipment, and can be pretty objective about it, regardless of what equipment that I currently own.

I'd audition a Final Tool in a heartbeat, as soon as I could find the opportunity. I don't feel threatened by any turntable, and if I liked it better than my Teres, I'd say so.

However, you might consider that there is a "Teres Fan Club" not just to promote the brand, but because these users really like the sonic performance for the money. Admittedly the prices have risen over the last couple of years, but I only paid just over $2k for my Teres. That was a bargain.

From a design perspective, the Final Tool has some interesting things going for it, but some things that I don't like from a design perspective too.
I like the "mass loaded unsuspended design and I like the separate motor unit, and the basic appearance is quite pleasing.

However, in my opinion, aluminum(damped or not) is a poor choice of materials for the platter, and also for the plinth and motor housing. Also, although I applaud their use of a "re-generator" for speed controlling the AC synchronous motor, I'm not generally in favor of AC synchronous motor systems on a turntable. The non-lubricated bearing seems interesting, but I'm a proponent of an oil-bath bearing for various reasons. Use of a felt mat, is an admission of poor platter resonance characteristics, and shows the manufacturer is aware of the problems of the use of aluminum in this application.

While nothing is perfect, and this Final Tool may be a very good sonic performer, there is reason to expect that the level of performance would reflect these inadequacies in the design. From a performance perspective, the massive precision oil-bath bearing used in the Teres would predict better results, as would the acrylic platter(admittedly not perfect, but better than aluminum), and the non-cogging DC motor with mylar tape drive is notably superior(borne out in testing) to the "string drive" system that has been obsoleted in the Teres line. The combination of string-drive with an AC motor can help with reducing the vibration transfer from the motor to the platter, but creates a "stretch-release, stretch-release" condition or "slip-catch, slip-catch" condition in conjuntion with a cogging AC synchronous motor. All AC motors cog. This affects speed stability, and is in no way comparable to a precision controlled non-cogging DC motor with a non-slip, non-stretch mylar belt configuration in the Teres. While wood may not be preferred by some as a plinth material, it is without question superior to aluminum, which is not even a good selection in the metal category for sonic performance. I understand this, because I work for a company which designs and builds metal products for audio vibration control use, and brass is so far and away superior to aluminum that it isn't even worth discussing aluminum in the same context.The movement toward the use of brass in the higher models of the Teres turntables shows that the designer understands the proper use of proper metals in audio designs.

Regarding the use of Cocobolo or Rosewood in the turntable for its resonance properties, Frank Schroeder seems to think that it works pretty well on his highly-regarded tonearms. And many others seem to agree. Wood does things differently than metals, while I generally also prefer metals, a good application of wood is better than a lesser application of metals.

The use of bronze/brass in the Final Tool bearing is a good use of materials there, and is in its favor for that part.

So, from a preliminary engineering viewpoint, there is no really good reason to suspect any superior performance from the Final Tool turntable, over the Teres designs, but there is good reason to suspect that the Teres design would show superior results over the Final Tool.

I would reserve final judgment, based on auditioning. But, from a design perspective, I wouldn't expect anything notably superior from that turntable. I will say that it looks like it could be a very good entry against many of the other brands that sell thru dealers(with markups) at that $2500 price point.

SirSpeedy,
Thanks for the idea of soldering all my connections. It would probably sound better, as Raul confirmed. This of course supports the concept that a single tonearm wire has a sonic advantage over a broken one. It seems we agree on that.

Of course it's up to each of us to decide where and how far to take this principle. Raul makes soldering seem like quite a hassle however, and I'm sure it is. I'll hold off for now, but thanks for the suggestion.

Sorry your friend didn't like the SST. I haven't tried it. I have read literature from a similar product and the theory behind it is a mixture of good and silly. Considering the obvious risks and the undeniable hassle of trying to remove it I'm 100% with you - holding off.

***
The sort of analysis Twl just performed for the Acoustic Signature Final Tool is similar to one I did - mentally - when a dealer asked me if I'd like to compare another table with my Teres. This other table lists for over $11K. But when I compared them "on paper" it appeared to have trouble even matching the qualities of my $4K model 265.

The performance is the thing of course. I passed on the audition but I spent a lot of hours with that other table when the dealer asked me and some friends to help set one up and break it in for a customer. Comparing tables in different systems is dangerous of course, but my friends and I all came away unanimously convinced that this $11K table is simply uncompetitive.

IOW, my theoretical comparison was proved correct by a hands-on evaluation: nothing about that table was superior, many things about it were demonstrably inferior.

Yes, I'm a "fan" of Teres. I'm a fan of any product that offers engineering, materials, construction and performance that exceed what's generally available for the price. The Teres models at least up to the 265 provide remarkable performance at their respective price points. Their component quality equals or betters tables selling for 2-3X the price. No one needs to apologize for appreciating genuine value. I will always be a fan of that.

Doug