Thiel Owners

Great that there are subjective improvements noted with the upgrade. Can we agree on objective measurements that would capture such an audible improvements and continue the Thiel tradition of both objective and subjective substantiation of improvements?

From Jim Thiel in Soundstage review of 2.4SE
http://www.soundstageultra.com/equipment/thiel_cs24se.htm


How were the improvements measured? Jim Thiel again: "The improved resolution is not the kind of thing that shows up well in measurements; the magnitude of the difference between the CS2.4 and the CS2.4SE is more easily heard than discerned from graphs. The new capacitors allow more nuance, air, detail, and decay to be reproduced by the coaxial drive unit. This was especially evident to us when listening to recordings that contained realistic reverberation, as well as recordings where the instruments were not processed heavily."

Rules - if an engineer with today's tools put his chops to it, the differences could probably be verified. It takes a lot of doing and my experience is that measurements only verify what we already learn through listening. I suspect the Klippel analysis system could show some relevant information. I don't know who might be working at such a fine level of analysis.

For the record, what Thiel would do is discern the improvement by ear, then subject the change to objective measurement. If anything could be determined to be harmed then it's "back to work". If no objective change could be measured, then it's down to cost / benefit discussion among the team.

@tomthiel 
Not that I’m an expert or professional but that approach sounds “right”. Measurements are useful for identifying problems but not necessarily helpful for indicating superior SQ. How is it that amps, for example, with similar measurements sound so different? The improvements I’m hearing in terms of resolution and transparency are undeniable but I’m doubtful there would be any meaningful difference on a frequency response or waterfall plot.

Beetle -  the measurement that would likely reflect on what you are hearing is a radical zoom-in on the onset transient impetus. The shoulder will be cleaner / sharper. Similarly the top shoulder before decay will be cleaner and simpler. Deep knowledge of the interactions between capacitance, inductance and impedance reactenances and reflectances might predict what measurements might reveal - thereby guiding measurement and evaluation strategies. But when a company is developing products on less than a one per year cycle, such measurement luxuries must be budgeted. Over the course of tens of thousands of hearing / measuring cycles, we learned what to trust and what required further verification. Note that such engineering verification was directed toward analysis for future projects and products more so than optimizing the present product. Note the systematic thematic progress from 1976 to 2009. Lots of learning, standing on one's own shoulders, so to speak.