Thiel Owners

Hi guys, yesterday i was fortunate to have the Audionet distributor at my place for a Humboldt demo in my system.

I can now say it is the best integrated amp at any price and will even outperform very expensive separates.

Never heard my Thiel CS 3.7s sound so good musical and smooth.

Hope to be able to afford this beast one day, this is end game.

I never thought Thiel CS 3.7s could offer such level of performance when paired with an uber integrated.

In response to pieper1973’s query about home-brew cables, I thought it might be fun to recount my escapades over the past couple years. As you know, I’ve been re-evaluating classic Thiel products for upgrade opportunities and have reported many here. I’ve also reported my semi-blind method both solo and with single or multiple assistants: A & B ’whatevers’ are made by me, but the label of A or B is assigned by someone else, who remains wholly blind while I am half blind. First pass is to play any mutually-agreed track and take notes - any notes of any kind to discuss in any terms. Second pass is to reveal ’what’ we are listening to (which might be mechanical, electrical, source, driver, cabinet, wire, room, etc. - anything. Then play A & B again with notes and sharing. Third pass is to share any measurements or background that I had previously developed and, depending on available time, listen again. These sessions are enormously informative because the feedback is any blend of musical, technical, relational, comparative, etc. and these flights of exploration provide avenues of engagement that apply to all the work, not just the system presently under test.

Through 2019-2021 I’ve spent hundreds of hours comparing hook-up wire, while tapping the extensive listening / testing that Thiel Audio performed during the CS3.7 development, as well as my experience developing the original aerospace-inspired classic configuration, and with special thanks to Steven Hill of Straightwire, Thiel’s long-term wire partner, who has been enormously helpful with samples, information, reference materials and sharing his decades of experience. A hardy handful of commercial wires were compared to classic Thiel 18-2 CDA101 (slow-drawn) in teflon twisted at 3/inch. In shorthand, classic Thiel "won" due in part to having been part of the intricate engineering puzzle for the speakers under test. 4 CS2.2s were used in the early stages.

Enter plan B - a different speaker. I was re-assessing First vs Second Order topology via the SCS4 as the second order, coherent entry. By its coincident driver geometry with the tweeter set-back the correct amount, Jim created coincident time arrival and smooth phase transitions while sacrificing only the amplitude of the phase swings through the crossovers. I created two pair of quasi 02s using CS.5 drivers and (modified) crossovers for functional twins where the only difference between A & B was first or second order, respectively. Long story short, I am re-committed to first order (net roll-off outcome) slopes for reasons too complex for this posting.

My wire comparisons got easier using the first order 02s with 1’ sections of wire to the woofer and tweeter from the separate external crossovers. With first order XOs, differences of 1’ of wire could be readily heard whereas with second order, they could not. My suite of measurements also showed differences, sometimes clear, sometimes clouded by ignorance or unknowns - but nonetheless experientially real and correlatable.

Onward to results - wire is extremely complex and functionally impossible to sort out what is "best". My criteria include doing no harm, adding or subtracting no color, texture or character, introducing no measurable effects and offering greatest musical engagement.

I’ll note that I have not explored flat wire such as Goertz. Note also that Goertz is where Jim ended for driving the CS3.7, while retaining ’classic Thiel’ hookup wire.

Highlights:

A) + and - leads are best when identical and integrated in a single run. Note: the signal is AC and integrated. Separating runs introduces asymmetry.

B) Insulation matters. I ended with ’teflon’ family insulations, despite their high cost. Note: I am enamored with cellulose (cotton, rayon, etc.) with possibly lower dielectric absorption than hydrocarbons. (In dreamworld, I land on nano-cellulose for use as insulation, in caps, and driver diaphragms.)

C) twisted pairs in right-twist, left-lay configuration wins. Note: I tried counter-lay, various parallel lays, braids, coax etc. Twist is 'perfectly' executable via reasonable means.

D) Larger gauge doesn’t quite win. Contrary to common sense, lower resistance isn’t the only game. Larger wire gauge exhibits different characteristic impedance. 18 gauge is uniquely suited to audio frequencies.

E) Stranded sounds different than solid. I reaffirmed solid as more correct, but also less forgiving as is often attributed to Thiel speakers. I didn’t like the slight tizzy HF veil and slightly wooly LF fumwp of stranded wire.

I sorted out mechanisms (that satisfy my particular problem-solving approach) to account for perceived differences.

I have a resultant wire configuration that I’m willing to share with interested collaborators on this forum. My apologies to whomever I left hanging during my present shut-down to close up my shop/studio. PMs are appropriate.

I have an interesting observation from using my CODA #8 amp on 3 sets of speakers including the Thiel CS3.7. Now my following observation are not based on perfectly matched volume levels, but I think I got a good approximation.

My CODA #8 has power meters that tell how much current is being drawn. On my Thiel CS3.7 most of my office listening did not move the needle on the meters. I had to turn up the volume to a level that was inappropriate for the office to see the meters move.

With my RAAL SR1a headphones connected to the CODA #8 via the amp interface box the needle dances at lower volume levels. I could accept that since the amp interface box is inefficient.

I was surprised to see that my KEF LS50’s also cause similar movement of the needle as the RAAL SR1a. This was really surprising. I use the CODA #8 on this system.

I would have expected the Thiel CS3.7 to make the needle dance the most. I do notice sonically when I use an underpowered amp with the CS3.7.

The CODA #8 is a very good amp on the CS3.7. I now use a KRELL 175XD on the CS3.7. This amp is not ideally suited for the CS3.7 but my room is small, and the sound is excellent.

The RAAL SR1a is now driven by a Benchmark AHB2 + Schitt Freya+ tube preamp. I love this combo. I found the AHB2 underpowered for the CS3.7 though I loved the sound on some music.

^While not specifically calling out the Coda, I often suggest caution when reading the meters on consumer gear. Despite their not inconsiderable expense, they are almost never calibrated, and more often than not serve to misinform rather than to inform. I'll hazard a guess that the digital meters on some of the newer ultra-expensive gear might be more accurate.

@unsound My meters observation is said in a relative sense. The CS3.7 seems to draw relative less current than the other 2 based on the movement of the meters. It is a rather stark observation because at about the same volume level the CS3.7 does not move the meters and the other 2 do. 

If I was using digital meters I may have exact number to state but the general pattern that I am describing would be the same.