tonearm questions

ALWAYS drop the stylus into the first groove and not into the lead-in spiral -- for all the reasons Doug says. Yes it requires eyesight (glasses?) and a little practice -- but any decent engineer has cut a few seconds of silence into the first track, so you won't miss anything once you get the hang of it.

Rolloff, maybe I misunderstood. Did you add the curved horizontal damping trough? -- the one that comes standard on the SME V, or are you talking about something else? (I don't understand how it helps with VTA for instance.)

Also the SME IV comes with a damped cueing lever, so why would you need the Thorens Q up -- or is it an automatic device for convenience?

Doug,
Thanks for your reply. I have been very carefully placing the stylus onto the lead in spiral. I'll try your suggestion of placing the stylus in one of the first grooves instead.
Also, call me stupid, but I always figured that anti skating worked in the opposite direction. It seemed, that if I were a stylus, riding in a groove, centrifugal force would tend to spin me towards the outer edge of the record, so I figured anti-skating would counteract this, by exerting some inward counterbalancing force. What you're saying is that the opposite is true. Yes?
Nsgarch,
Yes, I purchased the curved horizontal damping trough. It comes with an adjuster for easily raising or lowering the VTA. That's the main reason I spent the money to get it to add to my arm. I find it does make a difference when switching between 200 gm vinyl, and the thinner discs, if I adjust. I haven't bothered much in the past, but the damping trough comes with a little adjuster wand that lets you dial in those minute changes. I haven't installed it yet, but someone (Doug?) mentioned it in another post, and, looking on the SME site confirmed that it provides that function. I'll let you know how easily it works once I install it. It just arrived yesterday.
The Thorens Q-up is an automatic lifting device for convenience, it lifts at the end of the record. I used to have one on my old Thorens table. I actually gave it away when I sold that table, figuring there'd be something more modern and stylish by now to go with my Oracle. Hated the Stylift, and that was all I could find, so I bought a Q-up at hugely inflated prices on Ebay. The Q-up fits between the arm and the platter. Then I bought the Audio Technica Safety Raiser on Ebay too, but I'll use that on my Lenco project table as the Thorens fits so well on the Oracle. I love not having to jump up, or even listen to the stylus at the end of the record riding in the lead out spiral.

Thanks agin,

Dave

Dave, excuuuuse me! I completely forgot about the height adjustment screw that's incorporated into the damping trough piece (more likely I "repressed" rather than "forgot" it because it's such a pain in the ass to use!)

If you haven't read the long thread I started on determining proper stylus rake angle (SRA, a term more descriptive of reality IMO than VTA) go here:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1140840022&openmine&Nsgarch&4&5&st0

As for your question about antiskating forces, it is somewhat counterintuitive isn't it!? The INWARD directed force is the result of the tonearm being either "S" shaped, or having the headshell cocked at an angle -- both designs are ways of keeping the the tonearm physically short (9 inches) while minimizing the tangential error of the cartridge alignment to the grooves. (Early tonearms were 12", 16", or even 18" long, straight, with no headshell offset.)

However this "offset" design creates a virtual "lever arm" which when pulled on by the friction of the stylus in the groove, tends to twist the arm inward.

The easiest way to visualize it is to imagine tying a string to the front of the cartridge and pulling on it. The motion of the tonearm will be in toward the center of the record.

If the tonearm post, the armwand, and the headshell were all lined up straight and you pulled on the string, nothing would happen. But with modern tonearms, if you draw an imaginary centerline thru the cartridge front to back extending it backwards, you'll see that the line misses the tonearm post by a couple of inches (to the right). The friction in the record grove multiplied by that two inch virtual lever arm creates an inward twisting force (torque,) which must be counteracted by an equivalent outward twisting force (antiskating force) in the opposite direction. Now, isn't that just as clear as mud !? ;--)
.

Also, call me stupid, but I always figured that anti skating worked in the opposite direction. It seemed, that if I were a stylus, riding in a groove, centrifugal force would tend to spin me towards the outer edge of the record, so I figured anti-skating would counteract this, by exerting some inward counterbalancing force. What you're saying is that the opposite is true. Yes?

Since you're smart and brave enough to ask questions you aren't stupid. Ignorance is okay. We're all born with that! ;-)

Skating has nothing to do with centrifugal force. In fact, with a properly aligned cartridge there is no centrifugal force. If the stylus is properly tangent to the groove then friction from the groove acts directly along the line of the cantilever. In an ideal setup there is no outward (or inward) force (on the cantilever).

Skating force exists only on pivoting tonearms with offset (angled) headshells. Groove/stylus friction pulls directly along the line of the cantilever, but since the cantilever isn't pointed directly at the tonearm pivot a force vector is created. This force pulls the arm inwards and we call it "skating". Anti-skating devices are intended to counteract this inward force by pulling the arm outward, hopefully with an equal amount of pressure.

Doug

P.S. I doubt I ever recommended the SME IV damping option. I don't own an SME and I've used the V but never the IV. OTOH, if you like it it was *definitely* my idea!

Nsgarch and Doug, thanks for both your replies above.
Doug, actually it was Nsgarch who suggested the damping trough. He must have forgot too. It was in a previous post I instigated regarding possible upgrades for my SME lV, sometime in December of last year, if my short term memory still works after having just looked it up?

"The one upgrade I would recommend, would be the addition of the optional damping trough, if it doesn't already have it."

I don't know who mentioned the VTA adjustment that comes with the damper, but it was someone on a prior post, so maybe that was you Doug?

Also, thanks to both for clearing up the anti-skate concept. It makes sense now that I have the explanation and look at my headshell. Clear as frozen mud, which would be fun to skate on. :-)

As I said, I'll let you know how easily the VTA adjustment works once I install the damper device, and I'll take a look at the SRA link.

I may get the damping trough installed this weekend, but I'm working on constructing and installing an antenna tower to mount my Fanfare meter antenna on the roof of the house first. Reception should improve tremendously... I hope.

Dave