Upgrade from TW Acustic Raven AC-3 to what?

Dear Raul, dear Thuchan, we hopefully learn from mistakes, we learn certainly from results and sometimes from experience. But I can not see, what can be learned from an "opinion" of another listener who always have (must have, as he is a different individual...) preferences, taste and bias more or less different from your own.
We shouldn't mistake the gathering of opinions for "learning" from others.
An opinion is no more than that - an individual impression (expressed however...) formed by an individual matrix which has evolved over a lifespan of very unique - in fact singular in their combination - experiences, preferences, taste (or the lack of it....), moods and social circumstances.
An opinion is not transferable (well - all audio reviewers do make their living out of the fact that 99.9% of all audiophiles don't agree with me on that point....) - not in audio and not elsewhere in life.
If more people would trust their ears only and would listen to the set-ups more carefully and with less prejudice (i.e.: opinions from others...) more audiophiles would get much better results.
Enjoy the - long..... - journey.
D.

Hi all,
thanks for all your suggestions on tweaking it out before abandoning the AC-3. i am a great believer in tweaking (plus isolation). It is a trial and error thing and may eventually get it to sound closer to what i want, ie neutrality and transparency and great bass with soundstage and imaging to match. However, the curiosity in me would think careful tweaking would benefit all TTs also and again put them on same level playing field. So I think the cow vs racing horse analogy is valid. hence though i certainly would love to save a bundle by just tweaking it, my fundamental query still is, what other TTs out there would TRULY outclass the AC-3 sonically by a country mile that would make me end the upgrade itch for the next decade or more.. maybe my "retirement" TT. It seems TW Black Knight may not be the one.

Hi Alectiong, any of these TT's will bring you closer - if properly set-up.... which does require some extra work and "tweak" with some of the TT's mentioned now - to a "positive retirement" state of audio mind - (I am mentioning the vintage ones here, as others most certainly will promote different current production TT's...).
And yes, - I have heard them all in familiar set-ups - safe for the PV Magnum...:

* Platine Verdier
* Platine Magnum
* Micro RX-5000
* Micro RX-8000 or SX-8000 (but I can NOT recommend the vacuum version)
* Basis Debut Gold
* Epic
* Melco
* Apolyt

4 of these you are not likely to find at all on the used market.
Aside from the Basis Debut Gold and the Apolyt all other do need some treatment on the platter (a GOOD mat...) and all others aside from the PV Magnum and the Apolyt do need an isolation from underground by means of a Vibraplane or Minus-K or similar (see Syntax system for inspiration and illustration).
This is essential.

Some others will now recommend some idler-drive or vintage DD-TTs or Walker, Continuum, Rockport or whatever.
It will be a long journey......
Cheers,
D.

Alectiong, Since there seems to be a consensus that Vibraplane or Minus K is a sine qua non for mounting a suspension-less turntable, why not buy one of those two and try it with your AC3, before making up your mind. Either platform will be compatible with most of the other options (since most of them also are suspension-less).

I totally agree with Dertonearm's philosophy, which is why I could take issue with some of the alternative choices he lists (all belt-drive types), although I don't have anywhere near the breadth of his experience. I nevertheless find that rather amusing. If you want a fundamental paradigm shift, you really do need to try a top-notch idler drive turntable (Saskia) or direct-drive (candidates listed previously be me and others). Win Tinnon, who makes the Saskia, is one of the best guys you would ever want to meet in audio or anywhere else. (Careful, though, the Saskia weighs 200 lbs.)

I have oftem wondered at which point the law of diminishing returns, starts to apply. If you are choosing quality components, then I believe you need to at least increase investment by 50, perhaps 100%, to get a meaningful improvement. Below that, I believe, you get different, not better. However, different may be what you really need. We all know the excitement of a new component, changing the sound, apparently for the better. In many cases, just change refreshes the audio tastebuds.

When you get to a quality component and I think we can nearly all agree the Raven 3 is a quality component, then improving it becomes frighteningly expensive. Even then, a large investment, will probably get you an improvement you can only hear in a superb set up, in a highly treated room. I think you will always hear a difference, because components have a very different version of audio truth, but that is'nt better. It would need far better ears than mine to hear an improvement between one of the top tables discussed and another